Eph. 2:8-10

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry to disturb you all, but this thread is in response to a particular Mormon who claimed:

Obviously, you have to do something or you can't be saved. Salvation, therefore, is works based.

This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.

I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.

So here is his question to me:

I tell you what, why don't you tell me the difference between the works of v 9 and the works of v 10? Correlate those with the works mentioned in v 11. The very fact that you stopped at v 9 tells me you all don't understand eph 2 at all.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you
have been
saved through faith.
This passage is about being "saved".
Salvation comes "by grace" (unmerited favour)
The "means" (or "medium") of this grace is "faith".
And this is not your own doing;
it is the
gift of God,
Paul emphasizes the grace aspect.
It is "not [ ]our own doing".
It is the "gift" of God.
2:9 not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.
Paul denies that it is "a result of works".
Salvation is NOT by "works".
2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them.
"good works" is mentioned here.
But the "good works" are AFTER salvation.
We are created "FOR" good works.
This is contrasted with the "not a result of works",
which is tied to how we are saved.
Works don't "bring" us to salvation.
But they flow as a RESULT of our salvation.
2:11Therefore remember that
at one time you Gentiles in the flesh,
called “the uncircumcision”
by what is called the circumcision,
which is made in the flesh by hands—
BoJ asked why I didn't include "the works mentioned in v. 11".
Yet v.11 doesn't MENTION any "works".
It simply mentions "the circumcision",
which is a label for the Jews.
And note that the "work" of circumcision is
NOT something that the Jews "do", but is
something DONE TO them (they are passive).
2:12 remember that you were
at that time separated from Christ,
alienated from the commonwealth
of Israel and strangers to the
covenants of promise,
having no hope
and without God in the world.
Even with the "work" of circumcision,
Jews were "separated from Christ".
Circumcision didn't even bring them
close to Christ.
They had "no hope" and were
"without God in the world".
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus
you who once were far off
have been brought near
by the blood of Christ.
Now these Jews are "in Christ Jesus".
How did they get "in Christ Jesus"?
It says they "have been BROUGHT near".
This is passive, someone "brought" them.
This was caused, not "by works",
but "by the BLOOD OF CHRIST".


Thank you for your indulgence.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Sorry to disturb you all, but this thread is in response to a particular Mormon who claimed:



This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.

I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.

So here is his question to me:



Eph. 2:8 For by grace you
have been
saved through faith.
This passage is about being "saved".
Salvation comes "by grace" (unmerited favour)
The "means" (or "medium") of this grace is "faith".
And this is not your own doing;
it is the
gift of God,
Paul emphasizes the grace aspect.
It is "not [ ]our own doing".
It is the "gift" of God.
2:9 not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.
Paul denies that it is "a result of works".
Salvation is NOT by "works".
2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them.
"good works" is mentioned here.
But the "good works" are AFTER salvation.
We are created "FOR" good works.
This is contrasted with the "not a result of works",
which is tied to how we are saved.
Works don't "bring" us to salvation.
But they flow as a RESULT of our salvation.
2:11Therefore remember that
at one time you Gentiles in the flesh,
called “the uncircumcision”
by what is called the circumcision,
which is made in the flesh by hands—
BoJ asked why I didn't include "the works mentioned in v. 11".
Yet v.11 doesn't MENTION any "works".
It simply mentions "the circumcision",
which is a label for the Jews.
And note that the "work" of circumcision is
NOT something that the Jews "do", but is
something DONE TO them (they are passive).
2:12 remember that you were
at that time separated from Christ,
alienated from the commonwealth
of Israel and strangers to the
covenants of promise,
having no hope
and without God in the world.
Even with the "work" of circumcision,
Jews were "separated from Christ".
Circumcision didn't even bring them
close to Christ.
They had "no hope" and were
"without God in the world".
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus
you who once were far off
have been brought near
by the blood of Christ.
Now these Jews are "in Christ Jesus".
How did they get "in Christ Jesus"?
It says they "have been BROUGHT near".
This is passive, someone "brought" them.
This was caused, not "by works",
but "by the BLOOD OF CHRIST".


Thank you for your indulgence.

when I read Paul’s words they paint a different picture for me than most so if you are looking for an orthodox opinion then disregard the following.

Full disclosure: I used to be a member of LDS but left some years ago. I am more a lover of Wisdom now.

Paul’s mind is on predestination starting from chapter 1. From before the foundation of the world his saints were chosen (v. 1:4). This may be the “gift, not a result of works”, that he refers to here. IOW, God foreknew our salvation before we were born, and even before our conversion, hence, (v. 2:4) “he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses,”.

Which is why I believe good works are part of our salvation because he foreknew that we would do them, hence, (2:10) “created in Christ Jesus for good works.”

So bottom line, good works are required for salvation. It is what we were created for. It was what we were predestined to do. So somebody who does not demonstrate the fruits of the spirit in their life may be “Christian” in name only.
 
Last edited:

Dizerner

Well-known member
So bottom line, good works are required for salvation. It is what we were created for.

What good work did the thief on the cross do? Of course it's a little difficult to define what a good work even is. I think we were created to love God not be work machines, and good works are something we naturally want to do, not have to do. There does come a time when we are required to be obedient, but not because works are the focus or earning something, but rather because if we are not for God we are against him.

But praise God you left the LDS.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
What good work did the thief on the cross do? Of course it's a little difficult to define what a good work even is. I think we were created to love God not be work machines, and good works are something we naturally want to do, not have to do. There does come a time when we are required to be obedient, but not because works are the focus or earning something, but rather because if we are not for God we are against him.

But praise God you left the LDS.
That is a good point. Regarding the thief on the cross, after his conversion, when he recognized the Son of God, he became a witness of Christ, if only for an hour before his death. Apparently, that was the “good work” he was created to do, which God found acceptable.

(Luke 23:40)
“But the other [thief] rebuked him, saying,

“Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
That is a good point. Regarding the thief on the cross, after his conversion, when he recognized the Son of God, he became a witness of Christ, if only for an hour before his death. Apparently, that was the “good work” he was created to do, which God found acceptable.

(Luke 23:40)
“But the other [thief] rebuked him, saying,

“Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

I'm okay with that as long as we fully acknowledge what earns us heaven is only done by Jesus.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
I'm okay with that as long as we fully acknowledge what earns us heaven is only done by Jesus.
Agreed (but with a slightly different perspective than the usual understanding).

To me, “Yeshua” is the name of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. His presence raises my soul to heaven.

“[God] raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Sorry to disturb you all, but this thread is in response to a particular Mormon who claimed:



This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.

I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.

So here is his question to me:



Eph. 2:8 For by grace you
have been
saved through faith.
This passage is about being "saved".
Salvation comes "by grace" (unmerited favour)
The "means" (or "medium") of this grace is "faith".
And this is not your own doing;
it is the
gift of God,
Paul emphasizes the grace aspect.
It is "not [ ]our own doing".
It is the "gift" of God.
2:9 not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.
Paul denies that it is "a result of works".
Salvation is NOT by "works".
2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them.
"good works" is mentioned here.
But the "good works" are AFTER salvation.
We are created "FOR" good works.
This is contrasted with the "not a result of works",
which is tied to how we are saved.
Works don't "bring" us to salvation.
But they flow as a RESULT of our salvation.
2:11Therefore remember that
at one time you Gentiles in the flesh,
called “the uncircumcision”
by what is called the circumcision,
which is made in the flesh by hands—
BoJ asked why I didn't include "the works mentioned in v. 11".
Yet v.11 doesn't MENTION any "works".
It simply mentions "the circumcision",
which is a label for the Jews.
And note that the "work" of circumcision is
NOT something that the Jews "do", but is
something DONE TO them (they are passive).
2:12 remember that you were
at that time separated from Christ,
alienated from the commonwealth
of Israel and strangers to the
covenants of promise,
having no hope
and without God in the world.
Even with the "work" of circumcision,
Jews were "separated from Christ".
Circumcision didn't even bring them
close to Christ.
They had "no hope" and were
"without God in the world".
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus
you who once were far off
have been brought near
by the blood of Christ.
Now these Jews are "in Christ Jesus".
How did they get "in Christ Jesus"?
It says they "have been BROUGHT near".
This is passive, someone "brought" them.
This was caused, not "by works",
but "by the BLOOD OF CHRIST".


Thank you for your indulgence.
All denominations do the same thing as the Mormons, Catholic, Muslims, Baptists, AOGs, COCs, you name it you all have laws to govern your beliefs just different laws to govern your gods and of the law is all.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
when I read Paul’s words they paint a different picture for me than most so if you are looking for an orthodox opinion then disregard the following.

Full disclosure: I used to be a member of LDS but left some years ago. I am more a lover of Wisdom now.

Paul’s mind is on predestination starting from chapter 1. From before the foundation of the world his saints were chosen (v. 1:4). This may be the “gift, not a result of works”, that he refers to here. IOW, God foreknew our salvation before we were born, and even before our conversion, hence, (v. 2:4) “he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses,”.

Which is why I believe good works are part of our salvation because he foreknew that we would do them, hence, (2:10) “created in Christ Jesus for good works.”

So bottom line, good works are required for salvation. It is what we were created for. It was what we were predestined to do. So somebody who does not demonstrate the fruits of the spirit in their life may be “Christian” in name only.
Actually good works is result of salvation. Salvation is God manifest in you and there is only one who is good, Love, for God is Love and man is the temple of Him to walk as He walks in His same light of Love, same mind.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Actually good works is result of salvation. Salvation is God manifest in you and there is only one who is good, Love, for God is Love and man is the temple of Him to walk as He walks in His same light of Love, same mind.

Death sentence.


No one is good enough no .... not one.

and you seem to have no problem with such.

No not one ....... no one .. can ever be.


No one can ever matter ......

But for not mattering.

grow up .....
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Sorry to disturb you all, but this thread is in response to a particular Mormon who claimed:



This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.

I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.

So here is his question to me:



Eph. 2:8 For by grace you
have been
saved through faith.
This passage is about being "saved".
Salvation comes "by grace" (unmerited favour)
The "means" (or "medium") of this grace is "faith".
And this is not your own doing;
it is the
gift of God,
Paul emphasizes the grace aspect.
It is "not [ ]our own doing".
It is the "gift" of God.
2:9 not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.
Paul denies that it is "a result of works".
Salvation is NOT by "works".
2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them.
"good works" is mentioned here.
But the "good works" are AFTER salvation.
We are created "FOR" good works.
This is contrasted with the "not a result of works",
which is tied to how we are saved.
Works don't "bring" us to salvation.
But they flow as a RESULT of our salvation.
2:11Therefore remember that
at one time you Gentiles in the flesh,
called “the uncircumcision”
by what is called the circumcision,
which is made in the flesh by hands—
BoJ asked why I didn't include "the works mentioned in v. 11".
Yet v.11 doesn't MENTION any "works".
It simply mentions "the circumcision",
which is a label for the Jews.
And note that the "work" of circumcision is
NOT something that the Jews "do", but is
something DONE TO them (they are passive).
2:12 remember that you were
at that time separated from Christ,
alienated from the commonwealth
of Israel and strangers to the
covenants of promise,
having no hope
and without God in the world.
Even with the "work" of circumcision,
Jews were "separated from Christ".
Circumcision didn't even bring them
close to Christ.
They had "no hope" and were
"without God in the world".
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus
you who once were far off
have been brought near
by the blood of Christ.
Now these Jews are "in Christ Jesus".
How did they get "in Christ Jesus"?
It says they "have been BROUGHT near".
This is passive, someone "brought" them.
This was caused, not "by works",
but "by the BLOOD OF CHRIST".


Thank you for your indulgence.

What is the problem?

Seriously if we have NO works then we end up being a non existent being.

IMO ... you lose this game.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Death sentence.


No one is good enough no .... not one.
Exactly, that what I said, only Gods SPirit in the man is good enough
and you seem to have no problem with such.
Not at all for God is good and man is the temple of Him.
No not one ....... no one .. can ever be.
Amen we can only be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect if we have from Him His own disposition, He in you and you in Him as one.

You seem to have a problem with Gods perfections.
No one can ever matter ......
All matter to God for His will is you be like Him and in His same image.
But for not mattering.
Doesnt mattmer what man thinks what matters is what God thinks and you think as He does by having His same mind, in which you seem to have a real problem with Him.
grow up .....
Amen growing up is to be like my Father who is God. It would do you well to at least consider His ways for you. And rejecting Him as you do will earn you no place in His kingdom, BTW which is within you. Luke 17:20-21, or is supposed to be in you but you seem to have a severe problem with Him being.

You never have heard the gospel of Christ have you that you be one in Him and He in you as one as Jesus prayed to his God for you to be in John 17.

Growing up in Him seems to be very painful for your religious beliefs. You never have been introduced to the God who is Love have you that you would know Him personally? All that you know of Him is what someone else has said about Him such as one as Paul. You really should meet Him yourself but you know that isnt going to happen. And Jesus said that in that day ye shall ask me notiong but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you. But you follow Paul instead of Jesus that is very obvious in your statements.

Paul taught a dark belief as a sinner
Jesus teaches Light and without sin. Obviously Paul has become your god.
 
Last edited:

Slyzr

Well-known member
Exactly, that what I said, only Gods SPirit in the man is good enough

Not at all for God is good and man is the temple of Him.

Amen we can only be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect if we have from Him His own disposition, He in you and you in Him as one.

You seem to have a problem with Gods perfections.

All matter to God for His will is you be like Him and in His same image.

Doesnt mattmer what man thinks what matters is what God thinks and you think as He does by having His same mind, in which you seem to have a real problem with Him.

Amen growing up is to be like my Father who is God. It would do you well to at least consider His ways for you. And rejecting Him as you do will earn you no place in His kingdom, BTW which is within you. Luke 17:20-21, or is supposed to be in you but you seem to have a severe problem with Him being.

You never have heard the gospel of Christ have you that you be one in Him and He in you as one as Jesus prayed to his God for you to be in John 17.

Growing up in Him seems to be very painful for your religious beliefs. You never have been introduced to the God who is Love have you that you would know Him personally? All that you know of Him is what someone else has said about Him such as one as Paul. You really should meet Him yourself but you know that isnt going to happen. And Jesus said that in that day ye shall ask me notiong but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you. But you follow Paul instead of Jesus that is very obvious in your statements.

Paul taught a dark belief as a sinner
Jesus teaches Light and without sin. Obviously Paul has become your god.

Not a "Pauline Christian".

Per-say ...... however it is hard to discount Paul's writings.

Even yourself seem to proclaim the gospel of Christ.

Which imo is Pauil's construct.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
when I read Paul’s words they paint a different picture for me than most so if you are looking for an orthodox opinion then disregard the following.

Full disclosure: I used to be a member of LDS but left some years ago. I am more a lover of Wisdom now.

Paul’s mind is on predestination starting from chapter 1. From before the foundation of the world his saints were chosen (v. 1:4). This may be the “gift, not a result of works”, that he refers to here. IOW, God foreknew our salvation before we were born, and even before our conversion, hence, (v. 2:4) “he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses,”.

Which is why I believe good works are part of our salvation because he foreknew that we would do them, hence, (2:10) “created in Christ Jesus for good works.”

So bottom line, good works are required for salvation. It is what we were created for. It was what we were predestined to do. So somebody who does not demonstrate the fruits of the spirit in their life may be “Christian” in name only.

Then we don't exist.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Not a "Pauline Christian".

Per-say ...... however it is hard to discount Paul's writings.
He had a few thoings to say that jesus said we should be but for the most part Paul was of self.
Even yourself seem to proclaim the gospel of Christ.
Christ means to be anointed of God, Christ in me is Gods anointing in me, so yes I do LIVE the life of Christ. I suppose you could say that i proclaim the gospel of Christ for I am anointed of God, so was Jesus.
Which imo is Pauil's construct.
I agree that is in your opinion, but for me Christ in me is not an opinion, it is living the same life in the Father that all of Gods sons live in Him. He in me and I in Him are one, holy pure and without sin. In fact I cannot sin because I am born of God. See 1 John 3:9.

But in your opinion as you say, Paul was a sinner which is not of me at all. It wasn't of Jesus either and we both are anointed of God.

Seems to me you have to many opinions instead of actually having from God that what jesus had from Him yourself as we all are supposed to have from God and walk as He walks in His same light.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
He had a few thoings to say that jesus said we should be but for the most part Paul was of self.

Christ means to be anointed of God, Christ in me is Gods anointing in me, so yes I do LIVE the life of Christ. I suppose you could say that i proclaim the gospel of Christ for I am anointed of God, so was Jesus.

I agree that is in your opinion, but for me Christ in me is not an opinion, it is living the same life in the Father that all of Gods sons live in Him. He in me and I in Him are one, holy pure and without sin. In fact I cannot sin because I am born of God. See 1 John 3:9.

But in your opinion as you say, Paul was a sinner which is not of me at all. It wasn't of Jesus either and we both are anointed of God.

Seems to me you have to many opinions instead of actually having from God that what jesus had from Him yourself as we all are supposed to have from God and walk as He walks in His same light.

First of all ... I would appreciate it if you would NOT put your words n my mouth.

You are pretending I said ...... things I never said.

As far as your "Christ" thingy .......

so what I am not you .......

Your "anointing" is nothing more then no one else matters.

You started out in the jail ...... seeking to convert people.

Then you got "converted" ...... but you really did not get converted.

You are still trying to tell people they do not matter.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
First of all ... I would appreciate it if you would NOT put your words n my mouth.
As in?
You are pretending I said ...... things I never said.
Can you explain what?
As far as your "Christ" thingy .......
My Christ thingy? Can you expound?
so what I am not you .......
Meaning?
Your "anointing" is nothing more then no one else matters.
Everyone matters to God if they are anointed of Him or not which is Christ in you. Have His same mind as Jesus did.
You started out in the jail ...... seeking to convert people.
Actually I started out as a sinner and God saved me from sin, took away my sin, that is what He does, He really does take away the sins of this world 1 John 3. But most are just sinners' instead of His righteousness arent they?
Then you got "converted" ...... but you really did not get converted.
HUH?
You are still trying to tell people they do not matter.
I am? What I am trying to tell you is that you should convert to the One who does matter to be like Him yourself. But your mockery of Him will not gain you any headway toward being like Him as Jesus was like Him as He demands of you. Thank God I was converted into His image.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
I am? What I am trying to tell you is that you should convert to the One who does matter to be like Him yourself. But your mockery of Him will not gain you any headway toward being like Him as Jesus was like Him as He demands of you. Thank God I was converted into His image.

Told you before ....

You are just repeating yourself.

here we go again.

You started out as a "Christian' ..... trying to convert people in the jail.

Then you repented and found "god".

The sad thing about it is you are not realizing you are doing the same thing.

Still trying to convert people .....

Still trying to tell them they do not matter.

You have NOT changed ........


You are doing the same thing.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Told you before ....

You are just repeating yourself.
Actually repeating that what Jesus said you should be in the Father as he was in the Father.
here we go again.

You started out as a "Christian' ..... trying to convert people in the jail.
No I started out in communication with God. He directs my path, same one Jesus took when he also learned to communicate with god in Matt 3:16. Only then did and I go about living that life.

I didnt preach a word when I was in prisons, I went in to make friends and help people in need.
Then you repented and found "god".
No I repented when God found me. He wasn't the one who was lost.
The sad thing about it is you are not realizing you are doing the same thing.
I realize I am doing the same thing Jesus did and live the same life in the Father. That seems to be an issue with your belief system doesnt it
Still trying to convert people .....
Just trying to be a witness for what it is to be in the Father as Jesus was in the Father. ALl I can do is live it as Jesus lived it. Jesus expressed for what it is to be in the Father and one in Him and that is all I can do even repeating to you what he said you should yourself in the Father. But it is obvious his way goads your way.
Still trying to tell them they do not matter.
Who doesnt matter? Everyone matters to God, but God doesnt matter to be like Him and perfect as He is perfect to most is the real issue here.
You have NOT changed ........
Not sense God changed me into His image.
You are doing the same thing.
Same things as Jesus did I agree.
 

MMDAN

Active member
Sorry to disturb you all, but this thread is in response to a particular Mormon who claimed:

This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.

I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.

So here is his question to me:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you
have been
saved through faith.
This passage is about being "saved".
Salvation comes "by grace" (unmerited favour)
The "means" (or "medium") of this grace is "faith".
And this is not your own doing;
it is the
gift of God,
Paul emphasizes the grace aspect.
It is "not [ ]our own doing".
It is the "gift" of God.
2:9 not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.
Paul denies that it is "a result of works".
Salvation is NOT by "works".
2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them.
"good works" is mentioned here.
But the "good works" are AFTER salvation.
We are created "FOR" good works.
This is contrasted with the "not a result of works",
which is tied to how we are saved.
Works don't "bring" us to salvation.
But they flow as a RESULT of our salvation.
2:11Therefore remember that
at one time you Gentiles in the flesh,
called “the uncircumcision”
by what is called the circumcision,
which is made in the flesh by hands—
BoJ asked why I didn't include "the works mentioned in v. 11".
Yet v.11 doesn't MENTION any "works".
It simply mentions "the circumcision",
which is a label for the Jews.
And note that the "work" of circumcision is
NOT something that the Jews "do", but is
something DONE TO them (they are passive).
2:12 remember that you were
at that time separated from Christ,
alienated from the commonwealth
of Israel and strangers to the
covenants of promise,
having no hope
and without God in the world.
Even with the "work" of circumcision,
Jews were "separated from Christ".
Circumcision didn't even bring them
close to Christ.
They had "no hope" and were
"without God in the world".
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus
you who once were far off
have been brought near
by the blood of Christ.
Now these Jews are "in Christ Jesus".
How did they get "in Christ Jesus"?
It says they "have been BROUGHT near".
This is passive, someone "brought" them.
This was caused, not "by works",
but "by the BLOOD OF CHRIST".

Thank you for your indulgence.
I often hear works-salvationists try to "get around" Ephesians 2:8,9 by interpreting it as such, "saved by grace through faith 'infused' or 'conjoined' with works and not merely specific works of the law." In other words, saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law) but that is not what Paul is teaching.

Also, Mormons have a "different" gospel of works salvation that is not in harmony with "saved by grace through faith, not works." Instead, they teach in 2 Nephi 25:23 (from the Book of Mormon) - "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all WE can DO. In other words, do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you - "salvation by works."
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Sorry to disturb you all, but this thread is in response to a particular Mormon who claimed:



This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.

I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.

So here is his question to me:



Eph. 2:8 For by grace you
have been
saved through faith.
This passage is about being "saved".
Salvation comes "by grace" (unmerited favour)
The "means" (or "medium") of this grace is "faith".
And this is not your own doing;
it is the
gift of God,
Paul emphasizes the grace aspect.
It is "not [ ]our own doing".
It is the "gift" of God.
2:9 not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.
Paul denies that it is "a result of works".
Salvation is NOT by "works".
2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them.
"good works" is mentioned here.
But the "good works" are AFTER salvation.
We are created "FOR" good works.
This is contrasted with the "not a result of works",
which is tied to how we are saved.
Works don't "bring" us to salvation.
But they flow as a RESULT of our salvation.
2:11Therefore remember that
at one time you Gentiles in the flesh,
called “the uncircumcision”
by what is called the circumcision,
which is made in the flesh by hands—
BoJ asked why I didn't include "the works mentioned in v. 11".
Yet v.11 doesn't MENTION any "works".
It simply mentions "the circumcision",
which is a label for the Jews.
And note that the "work" of circumcision is
NOT something that the Jews "do", but is
something DONE TO them (they are passive).
2:12 remember that you were
at that time separated from Christ,
alienated from the commonwealth
of Israel and strangers to the
covenants of promise,
having no hope
and without God in the world.
Even with the "work" of circumcision,
Jews were "separated from Christ".
Circumcision didn't even bring them
close to Christ.
They had "no hope" and were
"without God in the world".
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus
you who once were far off
have been brought near
by the blood of Christ.
Now these Jews are "in Christ Jesus".
How did they get "in Christ Jesus"?
It says they "have been BROUGHT near".
This is passive, someone "brought" them.
This was caused, not "by works",
but "by the BLOOD OF CHRIST".


Thank you for your indulgence.

Do current works flow from a future Hebrews 9:28 salvation event?

Take your time.
 
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