Theo1689
Well-known member
Sorry to disturb you all, but this thread is in response to a particular Mormon who claimed:
This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.
I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.
So here is his question to me:
Thank you for your indulgence.
Obviously, you have to do something or you can't be saved. Salvation, therefore, is works based.
This particular Mormon has a habit of derailing discussions in the "Mormonism" forum away from Mormonism (because he knows Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible), and tries to derail threads to instead try to attack Christianity. Another poster responded to the above by citing Eph. 2:8-9, which the Mormon summarily dismissed.
I challenged the Mormon to give HIS understanding of Eph. 2, to which he refused, and challenged me to explain it instead (like I said, he will never defend his own beliefs, and wants to turn every discussion into a discussion of Christianity). Hence the reason I bring the discussion here, since I refuse to enable him to take discussions in the Mormonism forum away from Mormonism, so my apologies.
So here is his question to me:
I tell you what, why don't you tell me the difference between the works of v 9 and the works of v 10? Correlate those with the works mentioned in v 11. The very fact that you stopped at v 9 tells me you all don't understand eph 2 at all.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. | This passage is about being "saved". Salvation comes "by grace" (unmerited favour) The "means" (or "medium") of this grace is "faith". |
And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, | Paul emphasizes the grace aspect. It is "not [ ]our own doing". It is the "gift" of God. |
2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. | Paul denies that it is "a result of works". Salvation is NOT by "works". |
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. | "good works" is mentioned here. But the "good works" are AFTER salvation. We are created "FOR" good works. This is contrasted with the "not a result of works", which is tied to how we are saved. Works don't "bring" us to salvation. But they flow as a RESULT of our salvation. |
2:11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— | BoJ asked why I didn't include "the works mentioned in v. 11". Yet v.11 doesn't MENTION any "works". It simply mentions "the circumcision", which is a label for the Jews. And note that the "work" of circumcision is NOT something that the Jews "do", but is something DONE TO them (they are passive). |
2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. | Even with the "work" of circumcision, Jews were "separated from Christ". Circumcision didn't even bring them close to Christ. They had "no hope" and were "without God in the world". |
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. | Now these Jews are "in Christ Jesus". How did they get "in Christ Jesus"? It says they "have been BROUGHT near". This is passive, someone "brought" them. This was caused, not "by works", but "by the BLOOD OF CHRIST". |
Thank you for your indulgence.