Ephesians 2:8- Faith is the gift

brightfame52

Well-known member
Where ?

Point to an op that deals specifically with determination
Come to think of it, I dont, Im thinking about my thread on how some were created for Gods Justice and Wrath. However i have stated on this forum many many times that God has predetermined all things.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Come to think of it, I dont, Im thinking about my thread on how some were created for Gods Justice and Wrath. However i have stated on this forum many many times that God has predetermined all things.
No kidding you don't

Therefore as was noted you run from it
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Faith is the Gift of God, given by God along with Christ Jn 3:16, in other words, as He the Father gave unto us Christ, He will also give us with Him Faith to believe in Him Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Phil 1:29

29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The Father would not suffer His Son to endure such a suffering unto death, as that of the Cross, without rewarding Him with followers, those who shall believe in Him, Serve Him, hence it is promised the Father would give Him a Kingdom of followers.

Lk 22:29

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Faith is the Gift of God, given by God along with Christ Jn 3:16, in other words, as He the Father gave unto us Christ, He will also give us with Him Faith to believe in Him Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Phil 1:29

29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The Father would not suffer His Son to endure such a suffering unto death, as that of the Cross, without rewarding Him with followers, those who shall believe in Him, Serve Him, hence it is promised the Father would give Him a Kingdom of followers.

Lk 22:29

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Rather salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Rather salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You still dont get it. Faith accompanies Salvation. Christ Himself is Salvation Lk 2:29-30

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Do you know who Salvation is here ?
 

newheart78

Well-known member
Faith is the Gift of God, given by God along with Christ Jn 3:16, in other words, as He the Father gave unto us Christ, He will also give us with Him Faith to believe in Him Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Phil 1:29

29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The Father would not suffer His Son to endure such a suffering unto death, as that of the Cross, without rewarding Him with followers, those who shall believe in Him, Serve Him, hence it is promised the Father would give Him a Kingdom of followers.

Lk 22:29

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Amen Brother, every one of the Seed Ps. 22:30 that Christ suffered and died for, was delivered up for Rom. 8:32; those in the Kingdom He Federally represented Dan. 7:14, God Justly gives them the Gift of Faith in New Birth Gal. 5:22 to Believe on Him Phil.1:29 and Serve Him : Rewarding Christ their Saviour, the One who Gave His Life for them !
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Faith is the Gift of God, given by God along with Christ Jn 3:16, in other words, as He the Father gave unto us Christ, He will also give us with Him Faith to believe in Him Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Phil 1:29

29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The Father would not suffer His Son to endure such a suffering unto death, as that of the Cross, without rewarding Him with followers, those who shall believe in Him, Serve Him, hence it is promised the Father would give Him a Kingdom of followers.

Lk 22:29

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
How does God give us faith?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Rather salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Salvation and eternal life are two different things. Define the terms and it is easier to see this.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Actually eternal life is a facet of salvation

and saves from death
I disagree. Salvation relates to sin. We need to answer the question, "what are we saved from?" We are saved from sin as a horrible master (Romans 6:16; Matt 1:21). Eternal life is one of those blessings we are given in Christ (Eph. 1:3). Eternal life is a state of being in the right relationship with our creator. While they are related and eternal life is given right after we are saved, they are not the same thing.

This is further understood by those who believe in the age of accountability. A child has eternal life because they are not yet capable of sin (if this argument will not affect you if you believe all humans are conceived guilty of sin). They have not yet been separated from God by sin (Isa. 59:2). So a person can have eternal life without ever having been saved. Jesus certainly did.

In Truth and Love.
 
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TomFL

Guest
I disagree. Salvation relates to sin. We need to answer the question, "what are we saved from?" We are saved from sin as a horrible master (Romans 6:16; Matt 1:21). Eternal life is one of those blessings we are given in Christ (Eph. 1:3). Eternal life is a state of being in the right relationship with our creator. While they are related and eternal life is given right after we are saved, they are not the same thing.

This is further understood by those who believe in the age of accountability. A child has eternal life because they are not yet capable of sin (if this argument will not affect you if you believe all humans are conceived guilty of sin). They have not yet been separated from God by sin (Isa. 59:2). So a person can have eternal life without ever having been saved. Jesus certainly did.

In Truth and Love.
You may

However salvation is more than salvation from sin

It is salvation from death as well

In any case salvation from sin and death all happen when one believes

and faith is neither grammatically or contextually the gift of eph 2:8

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

Ephesians 2:8, 9 is therefore the key passage: “For by grace [instrumental case, t chariti, by the instrumentality of grace] you have been saved [periphrastic perfect, looking at the present condition that flows from the prior act] through faith [dia plus the genitive, intermediate agency]; and this [neuter touto] not of you, the gift of God; not of works, in order that one may not boast. There are two reasons, one grammatical and one syntactical, for insisting that “this” does not refer back to “faith.” Grammatically, “faith” is feminine and “this” is neuter. Only an unnatural stretching of the possibilities of Greek grammar can read “faith” as the antecedent of “this.” Syntactically, the fact (often overlooked) is that there are three complements of “this” which follow it: (1) “this” (is) not of you, (2) “this” (is) God’s gift, (3) “this” (is) not of works, lest anyone boast. To read “faith” with “this” might make some kind of sense for the first two of these, but it will not work with the third: “this faith is not of works” would be nonsensical tautology in view of the fact that works is in contrast to faith already. In Ephesians 2:8, 9, therefore, “this” has for its antecedent the entire preceding clause. This fits the “rules” of Greek grammar that called for a neuter pronoun to refer to a verbal idea, and it makes perfectly good sense in the context. “By grace you have been saved by faith: and this saving experience is not of you but is the gift of God, not of works lest any boast.”



Picirilli, Robert. Grace Faith Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism & Arminianism (p. 166). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
I really don't see how that's different from a "facet of salvation," he didn't equate the two. Just trying to be fair to Tom here. Certainly death is something we are "saved" from.
Understood. I was just explaining why I don't see them as the same concept. Related, but not the same.
Well this is a touchy complicated subject, and being a suspected "Provisionist" they tend to be weak on the sin nature, so he may already agree with you. I encourage to consider the way you have formed your doctrine is around the emotional feeling of God being "bad" if he allows a sin nature.
For me its not emotional at all.
If Scripture says we CANNOT obey the law, that means we have an inherent inability to obey the law. The fundamental tenants of the law is love, and no human being loves God the way they should at any point in time. It is not some weird coincidence that every single person sins but we are born perfectly holy, saved and spiritually alive, that makes no sense. If the Scripture says "no good thing dwells in my flesh," that same flesh is the flesh we are born with. Nothing good dwells in it. The very fact that our "old man" has to be crucified with Christ shows we need more than just sins forgiven, we need a nature removed. This is backed up and testified in hundreds of places that all need to be elaborately explained away. It may feel like one is defending the character of God to defend the innocence of a child, but in actual fact, there is a prideful and stubborn independence in demanding God meet our own standard of justice, and a deep self-righteousness in viewing our race as inherently worthy, pure, holy and righteous. We can "clean up" the outside of the cup and look good, but we will always be sinful underneath. Everyone I've talked to that denies a sin nature it seems like a literal spiritual blindness of some kind. I promise you—that if you seriously take this before and God and ask him if you have a sin nature, he will answer and you confirm its truth, if you will remain open to whatever he might say. If you do, my prayers are in agreement.
Could you explain what you mean when you say "the law"? What does that mean to you specifically? My understanding of "the law" when not clarified by anything as something else is generically the law of Moses. This is how it is used throughout the NT. When the writers need to differentiate they always add a descriptor (e.g. "the law of Christ" - Gal. 6:2) or give contextual reasons to understand it to be more than the law of Moses (e.g. generic use - 1 John 3:4).

I don't believe that "every single person sins", but I'd like to understand what you mean by "the law" before I go further into a response to your last paragraph. Thank you so much.

In Truth and Love.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
In any case salvation from sin and death all happen when one believes
We disagree on this point if you are saying it happens at the moment one believes. If you mean something more beyond the moment of faith, then perhaps we are closer to agreeing. For those who have interacted with me on this forum long enough, you know that I believe salvation actually occurs when we are immersed in water in accordance with the Word.
and faith is neither grammatically or contextually the gift of eph 2:8
Agreed. Grace is grammatically and contextually the gift of Eph. 2:8.
But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

Ephesians 2:8, 9 is therefore the key passage: “For by grace [instrumental case, t chariti, by the instrumentality of grace] you have been saved [periphrastic perfect, looking at the present condition that flows from the prior act] through faith [dia plus the genitive, intermediate agency]; and this [neuter touto] not of you, the gift of God; not of works, in order that one may not boast. There are two reasons, one grammatical and one syntactical, for insisting that “this” does not refer back to “faith.” Grammatically, “faith” is feminine and “this” is neuter. Only an unnatural stretching of the possibilities of Greek grammar can read “faith” as the antecedent of “this.” Syntactically, the fact (often overlooked) is that there are three complements of “this” which follow it: (1) “this” (is) not of you, (2) “this” (is) God’s gift, (3) “this” (is) not of works, lest anyone boast. To read “faith” with “this” might make some kind of sense for the first two of these, but it will not work with the third: “this faith is not of works” would be nonsensical tautology in view of the fact that works is in contrast to faith already. In Ephesians 2:8, 9, therefore, “this” has for its antecedent the entire preceding clause. This fits the “rules” of Greek grammar that called for a neuter pronoun to refer to a verbal idea, and it makes perfectly good sense in the context. “By grace you have been saved by faith: and this saving experience is not of you but is the gift of God, not of works lest any boast.”
I don't accept that salvation is the gift either. It can't be grammatically or contextually. Grammatically "it" is a pronoun and refers back to a noun. Saved is a verb. Grace is not of ourselves. Grace is the gift of God. Grace saves. I believe that if this is understood and that if folks would properly identify what Grace is (that is, they would do more than define the term, but properly identify what the gift is), there would be far less error and division.

In Truth and Love.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Understood. I was just explaining why I don't see them as the same concept. Related, but not the same.

For me its not emotional at all.

Could you explain what you mean when you say "the law"? What does that mean to you specifically? My understanding of "the law" when not clarified by anything as something else is generically the law of Moses. This is how it is used throughout the NT. When the writers need to differentiate they always add a descriptor (e.g. "the law of Christ" - Gal. 6:2) or give contextual reasons to understand it to be more than the law of Moses (e.g. generic use - 1 John 3:4).

I don't believe that "every single person sins", but I'd like to understand what you mean by "the law" before I go further into a response to your last paragraph. Thank you so much.

In Truth and Love.
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
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TomFL

Guest
We disagree on this point if you are saying it happens at the moment one believes. If you mean something more beyond the moment of faith, then perhaps we are closer to agreeing. For those who have interacted with me on this forum long enough, you know that I believe salvation actually occurs when we are immersed in water in accordance with the Word.

Agreed. Grace is grammatically and contextually the gift of Eph. 2:8.

I don't accept that salvation is the gift either. It can't be grammatically or contextually. Grammatically "it" is a pronoun and refers back to a noun. Saved is a verb. Grace is not of ourselves. Grace is the gift of God. Grace saves. I believe that if this is understood and that if folks would properly identify what Grace is (that is, they would do more than define the term, but properly identify what the gift is), there would be far less error and division.

In Truth and Love.
Your problem is the neuter pronoun Touto cannot take as its antecedent the feminine noun grace

A neuter touto takes an antecedent according to sense not the verb save but the concept of salvation

which Eph 2 is discussing
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I disagree. Salvation relates to sin. We need to answer the question, "what are we saved from?" We are saved from sin as a horrible master (Romans 6:16; Matt 1:21). Eternal life is one of those blessings we are given in Christ (Eph. 1:3). Eternal life is a state of being in the right relationship with our creator. While they are related and eternal life is given right after we are saved, they are not the same thing.

This is further understood by those who believe in the age of accountability. A child has eternal life because they are not yet capable of sin (if this argument will not affect you if you believe all humans are conceived guilty of sin). They have not yet been separated from God by sin (Isa. 59:2). So a person can have eternal life without ever having been saved. Jesus certainly did.

In Truth and Love.
We are saved from the wrath of God (Rom 1:18, Col 3:6), which results in everlasting death, eternal separation from God. Eternal Life is not being separated from God.


Doug
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
We are saved from the wrath of God (Rom 1:18, Col 3:6), which results in everlasting death, eternal separation from God. Eternal Life is not being separated from God.


Doug
You are talking consequences, not the root issue. Sin is wrong, evil, bad and our master that we need to be saved from. It is akin to Israel being saved from Egypt. God's wrath came upon the Egyptians, but that's not what God says over and over that He saved Israel from.

This is why it is so important to properly understand the Old Testament. The types accurately teach us about the antitypes of the NT. When we don't understand the Old we struggle mightily with the New.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Keep reading. This verse goes with the next. That all you are pointing is the same all that is being justified by God's grace in Christ. I am going to hypothesize that you do not believe in Universalism.
 
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