Ephesians 2:8- Faith is the gift

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Your problem is the neuter pronoun Touto cannot take as its antecedent the feminine noun grace

A neuter touto takes an antecedent according to sense not the verb save but the concept of salvation

which Eph 2 is discussing
A pronoun cannot refer back to a noun but can refer back to a verb?
 
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TomFL

Guest
A pronoun cannot refer back to a noun but can refer back to a verb?
Did you not understand what was written ?

I denied a pronoun can have a verb as its antecedent

I did note that a neuter touto (that or thus) can take an antecedent according to sense

Sense means the actual pronoun is not stated but the concept is being discussed

Salvation is the concept being discussed

I also noted a neuter pronoun does not take an antecedent of a different gender

Grace is not neuter
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Amen Brother, every one of the Seed Ps. 22:30 that Christ suffered and died for, was delivered up for Rom. 8:32; those in the Kingdom He Federally represented Dan. 7:14, God Justly gives them the Gift of Faith in New Birth Gal. 5:22 to Believe on Him Phil.1:29 and Serve Him : Rewarding Christ their Saviour, the One who Gave His Life for them !
Amen Sister, I believe 2 Cor 5:15 states the same thing, observe :

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Those He died for, is so that they will live unto Him, or Serve Him !
 
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TomFL

Guest
By New Birth of the Spirit, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. Everyone Christ died for shall be quickened/given life by His Spirit, then Faith has been given.
Sorry faith precedes the new birth

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry faith precedes the new birth

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
See everyone Christ died for He in turns gives them Life, Spiritual Life by the Spirit, which Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit!
 
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TomFL

Guest
See everyone Christ died for He in turns gives them Life, Spiritual Life by the Spirit, which Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit!
You ignored scripture to extoll your theology


1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

faith is the gospel precedes the new birth
See everyone Christ died for He in turns gives them Life, Spiritual Life by the Spirit, which Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit!
Not according to the verses above which you just ignored

Your theology is not a substitute for scripture
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Did you not understand what was written ?

I denied a pronoun can have a verb as its antecedent

I did note that a neuter touto (that or thus) can take an antecedent according to sense

Sense means the actual pronoun is not stated but the concept is being discussed

Salvation is the concept being discussed

I also noted a neuter pronoun does not take an antecedent of a different gender

Grace is not neuter
I am afraid I am not understanding you at all. You deny that a pronoun can have a verb as its antecedent so "saved" cannot be what touto refers to. But now you are saying that the actual pronoun is not stated even though touto is stated in the verse. Then you are saying that the actual pronoun that is not stated can refer to a concept noun that is also not in the text but is being discussed?

Maybe I can rephrase to see if I understand you better.

Touto, a singular neuter nominative is not referring to either the single word/noun charisti or pisteos because both are feminine. Touto can refer back to the content of a phrase as a concept or an idea being neuter, even if that phrase contains different gendered nouns and a verb. That means that touto can refer to the whole phrase "τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως" as a pronoun.

If this is what you are meaning, then I can accept that with the following addendums.

1. This phrase is not the noun or simply the concept of "salvation". Soteria (salvation as a noun) is feminine as well, so this would not make sense.
2. This phrase as a whole idea is not grace, face, or saved/salvation alone, but is a complete thought altogether. That means that what is not "of ourselves" is the process that is grace saving us through faith.

In this way, we can refer to the phrase as "the plan of salvation" which is most certainly of God and not of man. Nor does this understanding overturn the idea that grace comes from God and is the cause of salvation, or that faith is what God requires of man and comes through the Word as you have so well defended in other comments to brightfame52.

I hope I am making sense here and I hope that I am understanding you better.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
You are talking consequences, not the root issue. Sin is wrong, evil, bad and our master that we need to be saved from. It is akin to Israel being saved from Egypt. God's wrath came upon the Egyptians, but that's not what God says over and over that He saved Israel from.

This is why it is so important to properly understand the Old Testament. The types accurately teach us about the antitypes of the NT. When we don't understand the Old we struggle mightily with the New.
I am not saying that sin is not the cause of God's wrath, but the earliest cause and effect statement in scripture is "in the day that you eat of it you will surely die"! (Gen 2:16) The cause, the sin of eating the forbidden fruit, effects the result of spiritual death, separation from relationship with God. We are saved from death...that's the message of the resurrection, both spiritually and physically.

Yes, we are freed from sin, but we are saved from wrath and ultimate death!


Doug
 
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TomFL

Guest
See everyone Christ died for He in turns gives them Life, Spiritual Life by the Spirit, which Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit!
Wrong on both counts

According to scripture

1 Christ died for all

2 faith precedes the new birth

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

You need to form your theology based on scripture

not contradict scripture with your theology
 
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TomFL

Guest
I am afraid I am not understanding you at all. You deny that a pronoun can have a verb as its antecedent so "saved" cannot be what touto refers to. But now you are saying that the actual pronoun is not stated even though touto is stated in the verse. Then you are saying that the actual pronoun that is not stated can refer to a concept noun that is also not in the text but is being discussed?

Maybe I can rephrase to see if I understand you better.

Touto, a singular neuter nominative is not referring to either the single word/noun charisti or pisteos because both are feminine. Touto can refer back to the content of a phrase as a concept or an idea being neuter, even if that phrase contains different gendered nouns and a verb. That means that touto can refer to the whole phrase "τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως" as a pronoun.

If this is what you are meaning, then I can accept that with the following addendums.

1. This phrase is not the noun or simply the concept of "salvation". Soteria (salvation as a noun) is feminine as well, so this would not make sense.
2. This phrase as a whole idea is not grace, face, or saved/salvation alone, but is a complete thought altogether. That means that what is not "of ourselves" is the process that is grace saving us through faith.

In this way, we can refer to the phrase as "the plan of salvation" which is most certainly of God and not of man. Nor does this understanding overturn the idea that grace comes from God and is the cause of salvation, or that faith is what God requires of man and comes through the Word as you have so well defended in other comments to brightfame52.

I hope I am making sense here and I hope that I am understanding you better.
No I noted the antecedent to the pronoun was not stated

That would be a noun

A neuter Touto (this or that) takes an antecedent according to sense

What is the passage speaking of ?

Salvation

The noun grace is feminine and cannot be the antecedent of a neuter pronoun

as a pronoun and its noun must agree in person, number and gender
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No I noted the antecedent to the pronoun was not stated

That's not how pronouns work.

That would be a noun

A neuter Touto (this or that) takes an antecedent according to sense

What is the passage speaking of ?

Salvation

The noun grace is feminine and cannot be the antecedent of a neuter pronoun

The term "saved" in this verse ("σεσωσμενοι") is a masculine participle, and therefore (likewise) "cannot be the antecedent of a neuter pronoun".

You really shouldn't be making claim about topics of which you have limited knowledge.

as a pronoun and its noun must agree in person, number and gender

That rules out "saved", doesn't it? ;)
 

AllOfGrace

Member
[22] ‘[W]e receive, without any merit of our own, that from which everything … has its beginning— that is, faith itself.’[23] Likewise, Fulgentiussays ‘and, since this faith is divinely enabled, it is without doubt bestowed by his free generosity’.[24] It is not only the divine invitation to, but the divine enablement of, faith, that more accurately accords with faith being ‘the gift of God’.

Meanwhile, the Eastern tradition tends to take ‘not from works’ to refer to salvation—even though it takes ‘the gift of God’ to be ‘faith’.[25] However, we might consider that ‘faith’ is ‘not from works’ in that no works merit the divine granting of faith. Works are not a condition of the gift of faith. This is how Augustine reads it: ‘And again, lest they should say they deserved so great a gift by their works, he immediately added, “Not of works, lest any man should boast”.’[26]

Conclusion:
The elderly Bishop Augustine effectively united the majority Eastern exegesis of Ephesians 2:8-10 with a theological underpinning that gave this exegesis its natural home. Augustine’s rejection of the near universal view of predestination according to foreseen virtue and embracing of absolute predestination made him the first thorough-going monergist. His soteriology was more consonant with the interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9 found in the East.

Regarding ‘faith’ as the ‘gift of God’ in Ephesians 2:8-9 has ample support to merit the label ‘catholic’, even if the mature Augustinian doctrine of predestination does not.[31]

Learning these things from both the Eastern and Western exegetical traditions concerning Ephesians 2:8-10 enables us to be ‘more Calvinistic than Calvin’, who thought it an error to say that ‘faith’ was the gift here. But it is quite acceptable according to the rules of Greek syntax. Our modern grammars and commentaries should be revised to reflect that reality.https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/is-faith-the-gift-of-god-reading-ephesians-28-10-with-the-ancients/

hope this helps !!!
[/QUOTE]

19th century Greek grammars, steeped in the Classical literature from which Koinē Greek developed, articulate the rule that a neuter demonstrative can refer back to a masculine or feminine word[20]. Modern commentators sometimes acknowledge this.​


First, Classical Greek literature, the Septuagint, and the New Testament, provide evidence that ‘this’ can indeed refer to ‘faith’. There are 15[3] certain or highly probable examples of this rule—ten in the classical literaturę[4], four in the Septuagint[5], and one in the Greek New Testament[6].

Expository Considerations (Ephesians 2:1-10)​

The trajectory of verses 1-7 is not that humans under sin are sick and impaired but dead and enslaved. We were ‘dead’ in our ‘transgressions and sins’ (v1), and Paul includes himself with us in that plight (v5). Every human at one time has walked according to the world, the flesh, and the devil (vv2-3), and this requires that God must make us alive in Christ (v5) if we are to exercise faith (v8).
The clause ‘by grace you are saved’ explains ‘he made us alive with Christ Jesus’ (v5). So ‘making alive’ is part of God’s salvation by grace. ‘By grace you are saved’ appears again (v8), but a new, human element is introduced—‘through faith.’ This makes it more likely that the new element, ‘faith’, is the subject of verse 9. That is, Paul has already explained that clause (vv5-7). But the new element, ‘through faith’ (v8) most needed the explanation of verses 8-9. Lest his readers think faith is some independent action on the part of the subject, the Apostle puts it more starkly—‘faith’ is in one sense ‘not from ourselves’, though from another perspective, ‘faith’ is obviously from ourselves. And if ‘faith’ is the gift of God, so too is ‘grace’ and ‘salvation’. It cannot be otherwise. As Œcumenius said, ‘for us to believe [is the] gift of God, and to be saved through faith [is the] gift of God’.[22] ‘[W]e receive, without any merit of our own, that from which everything … has its beginning— that is, faith itself.’[23] Likewise, Fulgentiussays ‘and, since this faith is divinely enabled, it is without doubt bestowed by his free generosity’.[24] It is not only the divine invitation to, but the divine enablement of, faith, that more accurately accords with faith being ‘the gift of God.

Regarding ‘faith’ as the ‘gift of God

Learning these things from both the Eastern and Western exegetical traditions concerning Ephesians 2:8-10 enables us to be ‘more Calvinistic than Calvin’, who thought it an error to say that ‘faith’ was the gift here. But it is quite acceptable according to the rules of Greek syntax. Our modern grammars and commentaries should be revised to reflect that reality.https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/is-faith-the-gift-of-god-reading-ephesians-28-10-with-the-ancients/

hope this helps !!!
I’ve always thought that Paul’s point was that even our faith is the gift of God’s grace because...

1) In many other places in the NT, faith is stated to be a gift from God (eg. Jesus in John 6...no one can can come to Him/Believe unless it has been granted to them by the Father etc)

2) The phrase -“and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast” - seems like an unnecessarily redundant thing to add to “By grace you have been saved”. ie. ‘By grace you have been saved’ blatantly implies that Salvation is not of ourselves. Therefore Paul means to say that even our faith is the gift of God. Our salvation is entirely a gift of God’s grace.

The fact that we were dead strongly supports that interpretation IMO. We were DEAD. So God gets the credit for everything. It’s ALL of Grace.
 
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TomFL

Guest
That's not how pronouns work.

Sorry but if you are denying a neuter touto can take an antecedent according to sense you are wrong
The term "saved" in this verse ("σεσωσμενοι") is a masculine participle, and therefore (likewise) "cannot be the antecedent of a neuter pronoun".

And I never claimed it was

did you not read ?
You really shouldn't be making claim about topics of which you have limited knowledge.

You should apply that to yourself

especially as you seems to be inferring I stated things I never stated


That rules out "saved", doesn't it? ;)

Hello

I already stated that

Did you not read ?

I refered to antecedent according to sense

Neither faith or saved are the antecedent

salvation which is spoken of

Ephesians 2:8, 9 is therefore the key passage: “For by grace [instrumental case, t chariti, by the instrumentality of grace] you have been saved [periphrastic perfect, looking at the present condition that flows from the prior act] through faith [dia plus the genitive, intermediate agency]; and this [neuter touto] not of you, the gift of God; not of works, in order that one may not boast. There are two reasons, one grammatical and one syntactical, for insisting that “this” does not refer back to “faith.” Grammatically, “faith” is feminine and “this” is neuter. Only an unnatural stretching of the possibilities of Greek grammar can read “faith” as the antecedent of “this.” Syntactically, the fact (often overlooked) is that there are three complements of “this” which follow it: (1) “this” (is) not of you, (2) “this” (is) God’s gift, (3) “this” (is) not of works, lest anyone boast. To read “faith” with “this” might make some kind of sense for the first two of these, but it will not work with the third: “this faith is not of works” would be nonsensical tautology in view of the fact that works is in contrast to faith already. In Ephesians 2:8, 9, therefore, “this” has for its antecedent the entire preceding clause. This fits the “rules” of Greek grammar that called for a neuter pronoun to refer to a verbal idea, and it makes perfectly good sense in the context. “By grace you have been saved by faith: and this saving experience is not of you but is the gift of God, not of works lest any boast.”



Picirilli, Robert. Grace Faith Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism & Arminianism (p. 166). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Did you not understand what was written ?

I denied a pronoun can have a verb as its antecedent

I did note that a neuter touto (that or thus) can take an antecedent according to sense

Sense means the actual pronoun is not stated but the concept is being discussed

Salvation is the concept being discussed

I also noted a neuter pronoun does not take an antecedent of a different gender

Grace is not neuter
That should have stated faith not grace sorry
 
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