Esau proves Calvinist to be a false doctrine.

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Hebrews 12:14-17 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one come short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that no immoral or profane person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Calvinism does not teach this truth. The truth that receiving the promised inheritance can be lost, as in the case of Esau. Esau lost the promised inheritance because of a weak moment of the flesh.

Likewise , many of God's children willfully choose to live profane lives, immoral lives, disobedient lives, unforgiving lives, or just plain foolish lives and thus will loose their inheritance.

Many of the warnings and admonitions of Jesus and the Bible teach this truth. But Calvinism does not teach this truth. In fact Calvinism teaches that loosing ones inheritance is impossible. Which is why Calvinism is such a hideous doctrine for God's children to follow.

Surely you can see that if one is taught, or I should say deceived, to believe that you cannot loose your inheritance, no matter what........it makes it quite easy to live a profane life. Oh, that is not to say the child of God does not go to church and sing the songs, and think they are living a righteous life. Many do. But it is on Saturday night and other times through the week when they do and say and live their profane lives. With Esau it was but a moment of weakness of the flesh. But with many of God's children in can be a contradictory lifestyle, living in the flesh through the week and then feigning righteousness for a brief moment on Sunday.

God's children can and many have and many will loose their inheritance. It is just that Calvinism makes it easier for them to do so.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Hey Calvinists........what? No scriptural refutes? Just a couple of laughs from some who apparently do not know the truth.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Hebrews 12:14-17 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one come short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that no immoral or profane person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Calvinism does not teach this truth. The truth that receiving the promised inheritance can be lost, as in the case of Esau. Esau lost the promised inheritance because of a weak moment of the flesh.

Likewise , many of God's children willfully choose to live profane lives, immoral lives, disobedient lives, unforgiving lives, or just plain foolish lives and thus will loose their inheritance.

Many of the warnings and admonitions of Jesus and the Bible teach this truth. But Calvinism does not teach this truth. In fact Calvinism teaches that loosing ones inheritance is impossible. Which is why Calvinism is such a hideous doctrine for God's children to follow.

Surely you can see that if one is taught, or I should say deceived, to believe that you cannot loose your inheritance, no matter what........it makes it quite easy to live a profane life. Oh, that is not to say the child of God does not go to church and sing the songs, and think they are living a righteous life. Many do. But it is on Saturday night and other times through the week when they do and say and live their profane lives. With Esau it was but a moment of weakness of the flesh. But with many of God's children in can be a contradictory lifestyle, living in the flesh through the week and then feigning righteousness for a brief moment on Sunday.

God's children can and many have and many will loose their inheritance. It is just that Calvinism makes it easier for them to do so.
A valid argument, with biblical support:

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
 
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guest1

Guest
Oh boy here goes another fallacious thread from os. Esau I hated. Jacob was the elect. End of discussion.

next................
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Oh boy here goes another fallacious thread from os. Esau I hated. Jacob was the elect. End of discussion.

next................
Once again.....the Calvinist bent for not giving a cogent SCRIPTURAL refute but only a personal bias.

Esau was the first born and willfully gave up his inheritance.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Oh boy here goes another fallacious thread from os. Esau I hated. Jacob was the elect. End of discussion.

next................
Too bad you don't know the context of the scriptures you are referring to. The context says, "And I hated Esau, And laid his mountains and his heritage waste ..." (Mal. 1:3). I don't recall that Esau had any "mountains". The reference is to the descendants of Esau who were rejected and condemned because of their wickedness, not to the person of Esau himself.
 
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guest1

Guest
Once again.....the Calvinist bent for not giving a cogent SCRIPTURAL refute but only a personal bias.

Esau was the first born and willfully gave up his inheritance.
I’m responding like you do every single time you reply .

As they say:

what’s good for the goose is good fir the gander.

double standards OS ?
 
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guest1

Guest
Too bad you don't know the context of the scriptures you are referring to. The context says, "And I hated Esau, And laid his mountains and his heritage waste ..." (Mal. 1:3). I don't recall that Esau had any "mountains". The reference is to the descendants of Esau who were rejected and condemned because of their wickedness, not to the person of Esau himself.
To bad you don’t understand it’s OT meaning since Paul in Romans 9 gives us the biblical exegesis of that OT passage.

next.........
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
I’m responding like you do every single time you reply .

As they say:

what’s good for the goose is good fir the gander.

double standards OS ?
Double standard??? The OP was composed on scripture. I saw none from you. The scripture I wrote refutes Calvinism. I am just pointing it out.

But again, another typical Calvinist response from you. All worthless personal opinion, void of scriptural response/refute.
 
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guest1

Guest
Double standard??? The OP was composed on scripture. I saw none from you. The scripture I wrote refutes Calvinism. I am just pointing it out.

But again, another typical Calvinist response from you. All worthless personal opinion, void of scriptural response/refute.
You never respond to others with scripture.

next...........
 

AllOfGrace

Member
Hebrews 12:14-17 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one come short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that no immoral or profane person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
Calvinism does not teach this truth. The truth that receiving the promised inheritance can be lost, as in the case of Esau. Esau lost the promised inheritance because of a weak moment of the flesh.

Likewise , many of God's children willfully choose to live profane lives, immoral lives, disobedient lives, unforgiving lives, or just plain foolish lives and thus will loose their inheritance.
I'm not convinced that this passage supports all of the conclusions that you suggest it does. I'm not denying that there are serious warnings and admonitions here. There are. But when you study it all out, I don't see evidence to suggest that it overturns the eternal security of believers in Christ who have been made perfect forever by the once for all perfect finished work of Christ on the cross. Just a few observations...

1) The warning about Esau comes in the context of a call to guard the internal purity of the believing community. The church is called to make sure no root of bitterness springs up among them causing trouble thus defiling many. ie. Make sure no hateful, hurtful actions are causing problems in the church.

2) The church is called to make sure there are no members that are IMMORAL or PROFANE LIKE ESAU in their midst causing such roots of bitterness to spring up causing trouble thus defiling many. It's insightful that the warning about Esau comes in the context of that root of bitterness springing up in the midst of the church. He is likened to an IMMORAL person and a GODLESS person. That right there seems to throw a monkey wrench into the mix as far as your interpretation goes. In the context, it doesn't look like a cut and dry - "One sin in a moment of weakness of the flesh and the believer can lose his salvation forever" scenario. This passage and warning have to be unpacked.

3) In the context, it looks like a warning to the church to guard against fleshly, divisive and immoral people coming into the church because like Esau with his blatant disregard for his birthright...they can cause IRREVERSIBLE DAMAGE to the church...just like Esau carelessly gave up his birthright in a moment but when he wanted it back...the damage was done. It was irreversible. God forgives sins. ALL sins can be forgiven, Jesus said, expect the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But even then...God doesn't do away with the consequences.

Anyhow...there's more. There's definitely a severe warning to the church there to guard it's inner purity from Immoral, divisive and godless infiltrators who can cause great damage. I'm just not convinced that the passage teaches that Believers can, in a weak moment of the flesh (as you suggest) lose their eternal salvation.

Unless of course the passage is talking about Apostasy. It helps to remember the reason why the letter to the Hebrews was written. It was written to Jewish Believers who were being rounded up by the Romans and killed under the order of Nero. Christians were being killed, but not Jews because Judaism was protected under Roman law. And that was the temptation for the recipients of the letter to the Hebrews - They were being tempted to go back to Judaism in order to escape dying for their faith in Jesus as Christians. But in order to be accepted in Judaism again, they would be required TO PUBLICLY RENOUNCE JESUS AS THE MESSIAH AND GO BACK TO OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW AND START SACRIFICING ANIMALS AGAIN.

Of course, if a Jewish believer would in fact publicly repudiate Christ and renounce their faith in Him and go back to Old Covenant sacrifices...that would be the sin of apostasy. That is what they were being tempted to do. That is why the letter to the Hebrews was written...that is what the warnings are about. But then it goes back to the question regarding apostasy: If a person DOES forsake Christ and leave...were they really, truly ever born again in the First place?
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
I'm not convinced that this passage supports all of the conclusions that you suggest it does. I'm not denying that there are serious warnings and admonitions here. There are. But when you study it all out, I don't see evidence to suggest that it overturns the eternal security of believers in Christ who have been made perfect forever by the once for all perfect finished work of Christ on the cross. Just a few observations...

1) The warning about Esau comes in the context of a call to guard the internal purity of the believing community. The church is called to make sure no root of bitterness springs up among them causing trouble thus defiling many. ie. Make sure no hateful, hurtful actions are causing problems in the church.

2) The church is called to make sure there are no members that are IMMORAL or PROFANE LIKE ESAU in their midst causing such roots of bitterness to spring up causing trouble thus defiling many. It's insightful that the warning about Esau comes in the context of that root of bitterness springing up in the midst of the church. He is likened to an IMMORAL person and a GODLESS person. That right there seems to throw a monkey wrench into the mix as far as your interpretation goes. In the context, it doesn't look like a cut and dry - "One sin in a moment of weakness of the flesh and the believer can lose his salvation forever" scenario. This passage and warning have to be unpacked.

3) In the context, it looks like a warning to the church to guard against fleshly, divisive and immoral people coming into the church because like Esau with his blatant disregard for his birthright...they can cause IRREVERSIBLE DAMAGE to the church...just like Esau carelessly gave up his birthright in a moment but when he wanted it back...the damage was done. It was irreversible. God forgives sins. ALL sins can be forgiven, Jesus said, expect the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But even then...God doesn't do away with the consequences.

Anyhow...there's more. There's definitely a severe warning to the church there to guard it's inner purity from Immoral, divisive and godless infiltrators who can cause great damage. I'm just not convinced that the passage teaches that Believers can, in a weak moment of the flesh (as you suggest) lose their eternal salvation.

Unless of course the passage is talking about Apostasy. It helps to remember the reason why the letter to the Hebrews was written. It was written to Jewish Believers who were being rounded up by the Romans and killed under the order of Nero. Christians were being killed, but not Jews because Judaism was protected under Roman law. And that was the temptation for the recipients of the letter to the Hebrews - They were being tempted to go back to Judaism in order to escape dying for their faith in Jesus as Christians. But in order to be accepted in Judaism again, they would be required TO PUBLICLY RENOUNCE JESUS AS THE MESSIAH AND GO BACK TO OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW AND START SACRIFICING ANIMALS AGAIN.

Of course, if a Jewish believer would in fact publicly repudiate Christ and renounce their faith in Him and go back to Old Covenant sacrifices...that would be the sin of apostasy. That is what they were being tempted to do. That is why the letter to the Hebrews was written...that is what the warnings are about. But then it goes back to the question regarding apostasy: If a person DOES forsake Christ and leave...were they really, truly ever born again in the First place?
The text and warning has nothing to do with "eternal life/security but with inheriting the age to come. It is an individual warning and not corporate.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
To bad you don’t understand it’s OT meaning since Paul in Romans 9 gives us the biblical exegesis of that OT passage.

next.........
You got that one wrong as well. This is what it says:

Romans 9:

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


That refers to Genesis 25:21-23, which is again a reference to two nations, not Esau or Jacob individually:

Genesis 25:

21 And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.
23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
 
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