Especially For Markk, Joseph Smith Treasure Digging.
- Thread starter Richard7
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Richard7
Well-known member
Nope, It's my topic and I have asked you to watch both videos as you had also requested me to watch the one you posted... I did my homework, now it's your turn to find issues with Stoddard that you disagree with and your evidence that refutes her...
Really! Okay...
I'll start with, part one of the video was more or less a sale pitch to buy her book "Faith Crisis part two". Part two of the video touched on the local tax records that Hanna claimed prove that some of the accusations that the Smiths were lazy and that Joe Sr, was an alcoholic.
What stood out too me maybe the most, is that Hanna claimed that Joseph Smith was a type of Jesus Christ, and that he and the Smith family was without any imperfections and a perfect family.
She blamed Bushman for not supporting this kind of perfect narrative of "The Prophet. "
What she did not mention, were things like if the Smiths were so industrious, why did they lose the farm and why where Joseph sr and Joseph jr out digging the day the farm was actually reprocessed. Or why they most likely only paid done payment for the farm, I believe 1923. And how Alvin was the driving force in the family in that Joe sr did indeed like to drink.
There is a lot more...
have some yard work to do...more later.
Richard7
Well-known member
EDITED FOR LANGUAGE VIOLATION
She claimed he was not a traditionalist and nothing more, he was a progressive and one of those who supports The New Mormonism.
Why do you make up false narrative.
I asked for the source and now this is the second time you have deflected and not given something to validate your claim...
Hope its is not your septic fields, chuckle.
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Richard7
Well-known member
Markk you never really watched the videos to make such a obtuse remark...
Part One, looking into the sources that Bushman used.
Last 10 yrs, the debate really started about JS as a gold digger, up to that time Church leaders new this was false.
Bushman is pushing that JS was a lazy son of JS Sr, who was a gold digger.
Two sides, the traditionalist deny that JS ever was a gold digger and the new Progressives and The New Mormonism say he was.
Three scholars were debating this, Ms Rosetti stated that members are struggling with this new narrative and that the traditionalist Scholars are now pushing back on this. They are pushing back on Lenard Arrington and others... this ought to be good Markk, maybe you will learn something new.
Jospeh Smith is now being portrayed as a scumbag, a looser and hung around seedy folks. Primary kids of course are being taught differently and when faced with these claims are now losing their faith.... you stated Stoddard was claiming he was like JC, where did you see that, it wasn't in the first video you claimed to watch. Stoddard even admitted that if all this is true, then we need to apologize and move on.
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Ralf it is very true. Start at 35 minutes of the video. Not only does she say that Joseph Smith is a type of Jesus Christ, but she also shows a picture of Joseph and Jesus together side by side. Then she doubles down and says the progressives today in the LDS church, are basically the same as those that accused Christ...i.e. that Sadducees and Pharisees.
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Richard7
Well-known member
I watched it again, you took everything out of context, she compared him as a type.... compared him to JC and the same criticisms they both faced, you again are making it up, we call this fake news now day or disinformation.
Yes, Ralf as a type of Jesus Christ...not just a man that is being slandered against, or even persecuted, but a type of Jesus Christ.
Richard7
Well-known member
Correct, I watched the video again and its plain as the nose on your face, you don't get it. To think you left the Church for various reasons, mostly I feel you just have been deceived and slowly led down the path of delusion and selective disinformation on your part.
LOL...she said the revisionists were the same as the Sadducees and Pharisees? What's ironic is your Prophet agrees with the "revisionists" and many items Hanna denies.
Richard7
Well-known member
Well good buddy, show me the sentence that said he agreed..... I don't expect a reply, whoops again.
Do you know agree with Nelson here, that the BoM was translated with a seer stone in his hat, after all this is what Arrington and Bushman helped bring to the surface. Her, as I wrote, Elder Nelson agrees with the "revisionists. Hanna denies the stone in the hat...so ralf which is it?
The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:
“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)
brotherofJared
Well-known member
"Few" is the keyword here. And none of those insights claim that the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates was the seer stone Joseph put in the hat. Those were clear or transparent. The seer stone, that we still have, is not clear by any sense of the word.
This is NOT an insight. That is speculation. There is no way anyone but Joseph Smith would know what happened to that stone after he blocked out the light. Joseph Smith never said what happened. We don't have a single account from Joseph Smith about what he saw in the hat. Nothing, Nada.
All speculation. Not one shred of insight anywhere in those sentences.
Again, pure speculation. There is no way anyone could know what Joseph saw. His head was in the way.
Now, this we do have as a firsthand account from Joseph Smith. So there's some insight. Did you overlook that?
Here's the problem as I see it. You take a phrase, read between the lines, add your speculation to the speculation that's already there and invent whole new ideas that no one has ever thought of without any evidence whatsoever to support your conclusions.
Richard7
Well-known member
Speculation, speculation and speculation nothing but deflections from Markk... where are his sources?
Richard7
Well-known member
Where is the exact sentence, you are deflecting for reasons you can't produce the sentence you claim he makes that this is the correct account.
Once again Markk, you may be mixing up David with his father John and his brother Christian.
Also, the manuscripts are examined and determined to be primarily in the hand writing of Oliver Cowdery with only small sections written by Emma Smith, John Whitmer, and Christian Whitmer.
” Referring, again, to David Whitmer as “Father Whitmer”, Thomas goes on to say “…that unless I altogether misunderstood ‘Father Whitmer’ on this point, he said the translation was done by the aid of the Urim and Thummim. If he says he did not intend to convey such an impression to my mind, then I say I regret that I misunderstood him, and unintentionally have misrepresented him. But that I understood him as represented by me frequently I still affirm. If Father Whitmer will say over his own signature, that he never said, or at least never intended to say, that Joseph possessed or used in translating the Book of Mormon, the Urim and Thummim, I will agree to not repeat my testimony as seen in the Fall River Herald on that point.”
Joseph Smith Foundation--link not allowed.
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Richard7
Well-known member
President Nelson also stated:
Moroni told him that “there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of [the American] continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted ‘seers’ in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” (JS—H 1:34–35.)
The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights.
Insights: perception
fully known: entirely acknowledged.
LOL...classic
The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:
“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)
Richard7
Well-known member
Again dude, you are quoting David Whitmer and I have asked several time for any interview or words to the affect he witnessed the translation process.... we know that only 5 witnessed the translation method....JS, Emma, Cowdrey, Harris and David Whitmer's brother...
- David Whitmer, as interviewed by P. Wilhelm Poulson (1878). P. Wilhelm Poulson, Deseret Evening News, August 16, 1878.
David Whitmer: Man of Contradictions – An Analysis of Statements
L.H. Pearson, Ph.D. Introduction After four years from the first meeting with Moroni on the Hill Cumorah, on 22 September 1827, Moroni gave Joseph Smith the sacred record written upon metal plates along with the
josephsmithfoundation.org
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false…the house was full of people, Oliver Cowderys wife also witnessed the process. It was in David’s, and to boot, David’s method agrees with Emma’s and Martins understanding.Again dude, you are quoting David Whitmer and I have asked several time for any interview or words to the affect he witnessed the translation process.... we know that only 5 witnessed the translation method....JS, Emma, Cowdrey, Harris and David Whitmer's brother...
- David Whitmer, as interviewed by P. Wilhelm Poulson (1878). P. Wilhelm Poulson, Deseret Evening News, August 16, 1878.
David Whitmer: Man of Contradictions – An Analysis of Statements
L.H. Pearson, Ph.D. Introduction After four years from the first meeting with Moroni on the Hill Cumorah, on 22 September 1827, Moroni gave Joseph Smith the sacred record written upon metal plates along with the
Your new church, the JS foundation, is your only source, you need to read what your church teaches on this…