Especially For Markk, Joseph Smith Treasure Digging.

false…the house was full of people, Oliver Cowderys wife also witnessed the process. It was in David’s, and to boot, David’s method agrees with Emma’s and Martins understanding.

Wow! so if this is not speculation on your part and you were not there, show us more about the details of who was in the house or room JS translated in?


Your new church, the JS foundation, is your only source, you need to read what your church teaches on this…
Here is a new source...

It was during the continuation of the translation in June 1829 that Joseph and Oliver retired to the chamber of Father and Mother Whitmer’s home and called upon the Lord for guidance relative to their exercise of the Melchizedek Priesthood keys which they had heretofore received on the Susquehanna, but which had been momentarily kept under restraint as they awaited the Lord’s command to organize. Joseph said that while they were in the attitude of fervent prayer,

The word of the Lord came unto us in the Chamber, commanding us, that I should ordain Oliver Cowdery to be an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ, and that he also should ordain me to the same office, and that after having been thus ordained, we should th proceed to ordain others to the same office, according as it should be made known unto us, from time to time, We also commanding us, that as soon as practicable we should call together all those who had already been baptized by us, to bless bread, and break it with them, also to take wine, bless it, and drink it with them doing all these things in the name of the Lord, but to defer our own ordination until we had called the Chur together our brethren and had their sanction, and been accepted by them as their teachers, after which we were commanded to proceed to ordain each other and then call out such men as the spirit should dictate unto us, and ordain them, and then attend to the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.[18]




The Testimony of Sarah Conrad

Mary Whitmer never wavered in her support for Joseph Smith after she saw the angel and the plates. But she did do something to lighten her burden and make it easier to care for her family and guests.

The angel had suggested that she hire someone to help her, so she hired her niece, a girl named Sarah Conrad, to live at the house and help with the chores.{3} She did not tell Sarah what Joseph and Oliver were doing, but it did not take long for Sarah to discover that something unusual was going on. Sarah noticed that the Prophet and his friend “would go up into the attic, and they would stay all day. When they came down, they looked more like heavenly beings than they did just ordinary men.”{4}

At first Sarah was curious, but in time their luminous appearance actually frightened her. She told her aunt how she felt and asked what made those men “so exceedingly white.”{5}

When Mrs. Whitmer explained to Sarah about the Book of Mormon, she “told her what the men were doing in the room above and that the power of God was so great in the room that they could hardly endure it. At times angels were in the room in their glory which nearly consumed them.”{6} The light that shone from Joseph and Oliver’s faces came from their having been with the angels.

This explanation was reasonable enough and satisfied Sarah. She not only stayed with the Whitmers, but she also became one of Joseph’s good friends. She was baptized, and much later, after she and the other Saints were driven from Nauvoo, she settled with them in Provo, Utah.{7}

Joseph never told his readers how he translated the Book of Mormon except to say that he used the Urim and Thummim and that he did it “by the gift and power of God.” But there are some interesting indications that he had help from other angels besides Moroni.{8}

Sarah’s is the earliest of a number of accounts that testify that at times, when the Prophet was receiving revelation or was in the presence of heavenly beings, he, like Moses, actually glowed (Exodus 34:29-35).

Wilford Woodruff tried to describe the Prophet’s appearance on one of those occasions. He said, “His face was clear as amber.”{9} Philo Dibble, who was present when the Prophet received the revelation that is now the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, reported, “Joseph wore black clothes, but at this time seemed to be dressed in an element of glorious white.”{10}

Sarah’s testimony that the men who were working on the translation of the Book of Mormon “looked so exceedingly white,” combined with Mrs. Whitmer’s explanation that “angels were in the room in their glory which nearly consumed them,” gives a valuable key to understanding the Book of Mormon and to knowing how it was translated. One may assume that if there were angels in the room, they had some purpose for being there other than just to pass the time of day. Their presence in the translating room certainly had an impact upon the ultimate outcome of Joseph’s work.
 
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Wow! so if this is not speculation on your part and you were not there, show us more about the details of who was in the house or room JS translated in?
LOL...are you Mormon or LDS? Why do you think they are called witnesses? Not only was the BoM translated at the Whitmer's house, but the church was also established there...I learned this in Primary. I guess this is one more thing I have taught you about Mormonism.

It is where Oliver probably met his future wife Elizebath, David's sister. And, Hiram Page was married to David's other sister Catharine.

If you want to see the room, or as historically replicated by your church...see the slide show.


I am of pioneer stock, all 4 sides, I was taught this again in Jr. SS and primary...you must be a convert to not know this?
 
LOL...are you Mormon or LDS? Why do you think they are called witnesses? Not only was the BoM translated at the Whitmer's house, but the church was also established there...I learned this in Primary. I guess this is one more thing I have taught you about Mormonism.

Chuckle, attic good buddy, attic with the door closed. I gave you a witness to that fact. Yes, there is a picture of Spencer Kimball in the rebuilt Whitmere home stating this is where the Church was first organized, your still deflecting with known facts, get serous friend and stay on topic, treasure digging.

It is where Oliver probably met his future wife Elizebath, David's sister. And, Hiram Page was married to David's other sister Catharine.

If you want to see the room, or as historically replicated by your church...see the slide show.


I am of pioneer stock, all 4 sides, I was taught this again in Jr. SS and primary...you must be a convert to not know this?
Chuckle, deflection, striving to change the subject and move the goal posts as usual. My membership started when I was a deacon. All the above is irrelevant and of course most LDS know the history you sited
 
Chuckle, attic good buddy, attic with the door closed. I gave you a witness to that fact. Yes, there is a picture of Spencer Kimball in the rebuilt Whitmere home stating this is where the Church was first organized, your still deflecting with known facts, get serous friend and stay on topic, treasure digging.
It was a 700 sq. ft. cottage with an upper attic loft. Whether upstairs or downstairs, it was still about 700 square feet or so, with a lot of people living there, and others in and out, and people witnessing the process.

I can show you where Elizabeth Whitmer Cowdery testified...

112. Elizabeth Whitmer Cowdery, as recorded by William E. McLellin (1870)

" I staid in Richmond two days and nights. I had a great deal of talk with widow Cowdry, and her amiable daughter. She is married to a Dr Johnson, but has no children. She gave me a certificate, And this is the copy. “Richmond, Ray Co., Mo. Feb 15, 1870———I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith’s translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father’s house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his face in his hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read the words?] as they appeared before him.”112 "


Orson Pratt also saw the process as did no doubt the witnesses. To say that David did not is just nonsense.
 
It was a 700 sq. ft. cottage with an upper attic loft. Whether upstairs or downstairs, it was still about 700 square feet or so, with a lot of people living there, and others in and out, and people witnessing the process.

They also had a barn good buddy, you were not there and don't know anything about the living conditions, in fact you did not even mention the attic wherein you stated JS did all the translating in the same room as all the others... bingo, wrong again.


I can show you where Elizabeth Whitmer Cowdery testified...

112. Elizabeth Whitmer Cowdery, as recorded by William E. McLellin (1870)

" I staid in Richmond two days and nights. I had a great deal of talk with widow Cowdry, and her amiable daughter. She is married to a Dr Johnson, but has no children. She gave me a certificate, And this is the copy. “Richmond, Ray Co., Mo. Feb 15, 1870———I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith’s translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father’s house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his face in his hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read the words?] as they appeared before him.”112 "

Early Experiences
Elizabeth was about fourteen years old when Joseph and Emma Smith moved to the Whitmer farm to work on the translation of the Book of Mormon. These teen years must have been a constant wonder to her as she was present during these remarkable and extraordinary events. Imagine Elizabeth approaching her young womanhood, yet very much still a child, exploring the hidden recesses of her home where the young Smith family lived. She must have many times crept up the steps to peek into the chamber wondering what strange business was going on there, while Joseph, Oliver, Christian, John, and others were translating, writing out revelations, or entertaining visitors. So it was not altogether by choice that Elizabeth Ann became part of the Mormon story, but it was in response to the experiences of her family, parents, brothers, and sister Catharine, and also later by marriage.
Whitmer family Bible, Family Record, Community of Christ Library-Archives, Independence, Missouri.



Emma Smith and Martin Harris both stated that Joseph Smith used an object or instrument to assist in translation: he would place the instrument into a hat and, burying his face in the hat, would peer into the instrument.27 One of the instruments Smith used was apparently a set of two stones, at times called “spectacles” in early sources, that he said were recovered from the hill along with the plates.28 These spectacles were thought to be the “interpreters” that the Book of Mormon text says would be preserved with the plates.29 Decades later, Harris described these objects: “Two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round. . . . The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks.”30 Joseph Smith himself described the instrument as consisting of “two transparent stones.”31 Lucy Mack Smith, who remembered seeing the spectacles before her son’s move to Harmony, gave a description of the instrument that is similar to Harris’s: “2 smooth 3 cornered diamonds set in glass and the glass was set in silver bows conected with each other in the same way that old fashioned spectacles are made.”32

In an 1834 letter to church leader William W. Phelps, Cowdery recalled his experience with the translating process: “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom!” Besides affirming that the translation was done under divine influence, Cowdery added a brief description of the process: “Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites whould have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history, or record, called ‘The book of Mormon.’”






LDS Church baptized him on Orson's nineteenth birthday, September 19, 1830,
Book of Mormon was completed in 1829 in between 53 and 74 working days.

Oh my Markk, wrong again!
 
They also had a barn good buddy, you were not there and don't know anything about the living conditions, in fact you did not even mention the attic wherein you stated JS did all the translating in the same room as all the others... bingo, wrong again.
LOL, so now you are saying that Emma lived and stayed in the barn for 6 months, while Joseph was in the house translating the plates. Nice Ralf.

Per the History of the Church...

It was arranged that we should have our board free of charge, and the assistance of one of his brothers to write for me, and also his own assistance when convenient. Having much need of such timely aid in an undertaking so arduous, and being informed that the people in the neighborhood of the Whitmers were anxiously awaiting the opportunity to inquire into these things, we accepted the invitation, and accompanied Mr. Whitmer to his father's house, and there resided until the translation was finished and the copyright secured. Upon our arrival, we found Mr. Whitmer's family very anxious Concerning the work, and very friendly toward ourselves. They continued so, boarded and lodged us according to arrangements; and John Whitmer, in particular, assisted us very much in writing during the remainder of the work.

Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 3120-3121).
 
LOL, so now you are saying that Emma lived and stayed in the barn for 6 months, while Joseph was in the house translating the plates. Nice Ralf.
Never said that, your grasping at straws now. How about getting back to treasure digging and keep the topic on its original track?


Per the History of the Church...

It was arranged that we should have our board free of charge, and the assistance of one of his brothers to write for me, and also his own assistance when convenient. Having much need of such timely aid in an undertaking so arduous, and being informed that the people in the neighborhood of the Whitmers were anxiously awaiting the opportunity to inquire into these things, we accepted the invitation, and accompanied Mr. Whitmer to his father's house, and there resided until the translation was finished and the copyright secured. Upon our arrival, we found Mr. Whitmer's family very anxious Concerning the work, and very friendly toward ourselves. They continued so, boarded and lodged us according to arrangements; and John Whitmer, in particular, assisted us very much in writing during the remainder of the work.

Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 3120-3121).
So thank you for the above, I had read that already which is good since you have stated my research sucks and am clueless to the history of JS.
 
Never said that, your grasping at straws now. How about getting back to treasure digging and keep the topic on its original track?
You certainly implied it, Ralf they stayed in the house not the barn. Emma was his wife. She helped translate the plates, she moved them when she was dusting. So, are you retracting she stayed in the barn?

So thank you for the above, I had read that already which is good since you have stated my research sucks and am clueless to the history of JS.
Ralf, if you read it, why did you then say she could have stayed in the barn?

This is from LDS . org, and compliments my original assertion. It does not read "barn quests" as you implied.

Once Joseph, Emma, and Oliver moved to Fayette, David’s mother had her hands full. Mary Whitmer and her husband, Peter, already had eight children between the ages of fifteen and thirty, and the few who did not still live at home resided nearby. Tending to their needs filled Mary’s days with work, and the three houseguests added more labor. Mary had faith in Joseph’s calling and did not complain, but she was getting tired.17

 
You certainly implied it, Ralf they stayed in the house not the barn. Emma was his wife. She helped translate the plates, she moved them when she was dusting. So, are you retracting she stayed in the barn?


Ralf, if you read it, why did you then say she could have stayed in the barn?

This is from LDS . org, and compliments my original assertion. It does not read "barn quests" as you implied.

Once Joseph, Emma, and Oliver moved to Fayette, David’s mother had her hands full. Mary Whitmer and her husband, Peter, already had eight children between the ages of fifteen and thirty, and the few who did not still live at home resided nearby. Tending to their needs filled Mary’s days with work, and the three houseguests added more labor. Mary had faith in Joseph’s calling and did not complain, but she was getting tired.17

Chuckle....what are you talking about, your timeline is out of wack as is you poor research abilities.

Introduction and Timeline​

After Joseph Smith received the golden plates in September 1827, he faced the difficult task of translating and publishing the record. In December 1827, Joseph and Emma moved from Manchester, New York, to Harmony, Pennsylvania, so that the couple could escape increasing persecution and so that Emma, then pregnant, could give birth closer to her family. In February 1828, Martin Harris arrived in Harmony to assist the Prophet. By June, the Prophet had translated 116 pages with Martin Harris as his scribe. Martin asked for Joseph’s permission to return to New York and show the manuscript pages to his wife and a few others, but the Lord forbade it. Because of Martin’s continual pleading, Joseph asked the Lord twice more, and the Lord permitted Martin to take the manuscript if he agreed to certain conditions. However, through Martin’s carelessness, the manuscript pages were taken by “wicked men” (D&C 10:8). Because of this mistake, Joseph Smith lost the gift to translate for a time. After the Prophet’s gift was restored, the Lord sent Oliver Cowdery to assist him in the work of translation.

September 22, 1827
Joseph Smith received the golden plates from the angel Moroni.

December 1827
Joseph and Emma Smith moved to Harmony, Pennsylvania, where Joseph began translating the Book of Mormon in earnest.

February 1828
Martin Harris took a transcript of some characters copied from the golden plates to scholars in New York City.

June–July 1828
Martin Harris lost 116 pages Joseph Smith had translated from the Book of Mormon.

April 5, 1829
Oliver Cowdery arrived in Harmony, Pennsylvania, to assist Joseph Smith with the translation of the golden plates.



.
When Emma wasn’t acting as a scribe, she was often doing the domestic chores needed for the survival and comfort of those actively involved in the translation. Easton-Flake and Cope noted, “Maintaining a home was a full-time occupation in early nineteenth-century America, and Emma, without any hired help, fulfilled this necessary role for Joseph and herself, as well as at times for Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery.”21

It is also apparent that Emma was deeply concerned for the success of the translation project. The loss of the 116 pages22 occurred during a time when Emma was severely sick and had just lost a baby in childbirth.23 Yet even in her sorrow and ill health, Emma told Joseph, “I feel so uneasy … that I cannot rest and shall not be at ease until I know something about what Mr. Harris is doing with [the borrowed manuscript].”24

These details help explain why the Lord chose Emma Smith as an “elect lady” to serve alongside her husband (Doctrine and Covenants 25:3). Her service as a scribe was essential. Her witness as an intimate observer and participant of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is convincing. And her faithfulness to the prophet Joseph Smith and to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is inspiring. In awe at her miraculous experiences, Emma herself remarked, “And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, and was present during the translation of the plates, and had cognizance of things as they transpired, it is marvelous to me, ‘a marvel and a wonder,’ as much so as to any one else.”25


Joseph and Emma moved from Manchester, New York, to Harmony, Pennsylvania, in December 1827 (see Joseph Smith—History 1:60–61). This move also allowed Emma, who was expecting her first baby, to be near her family.
 
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For Markk, treasure digging the occult and divination....

Deuteronomy 18:9-12​

King James Version​

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


So Markk you are read to accept that JS and the premise he was an abomination onto the Lord. God condems withcraft and anything similar to it.
Then why don’t you believe what she said about how her husband “translated” the plates?
Do you notice that Markk often states things but never supplies the source... what kind of research is that? He stated they lived together, not in the barn, never mentions the attic, she move them in the kitchen way before they were camped out at the Whitmers, his facts are sketchy and he provides only his own opinion... Markk went on and on and never once mentioned the attic, claiming the translation took place in the main room.
Lots of BS and little to no facts or evidence... he is losing the battle and is struggling to keep up ...
 
For Markk, treasure digging the occult and divination....

Deuteronomy 18:9-12​

King James Version​

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


So Markk you are read to accept that JS and the premise he was an abomination onto the Lord. God condems withcraft and anything similar to it.
Yes, it is not Biblical, however the LDS church is very clear Joseph was a money digger by definition.

Treasure Seeking

Joseph Smith’s critics often tried to disparage him by calling him a money digger or a treasure seeker. Rather than deny the charge, Joseph acknowledged in his official history that Josiah Stowell had hired him in 1825 to assist in a treasure-seeking venture in northern Pennsylvania.1 Stowell wanted his help because Joseph was reputed by some of his neighbors to be a “seer”—someone who could look into a special stone and find lost or hidden objects.2
“Seeing” and “seers” were part of the culture in which Joseph Smith grew up. Some people in the early 19th century believed it was possible for gifted individuals to see lost objects by means of material objects such as stones. Joseph Smith and his family, like many around them, accepted these familiar folk practices.
In the 1820s, a fascination with purported Spanish treasure deposits led prospectors like Josiah Stowell to enlist the aid of seers like Joseph in their search for treasure.3 Stowell trusted Joseph, sought his assistance in seeking treasure, and even took his advice to finally give up the hunt. Joseph Smith Sr. considered his son’s ability sacred and hoped he would cease using it to look for earthly treasures.4 As Joseph prepared to translate the Book of Mormon, he was commanded to have nothing further to do with those who sought treasure and instead use his gift to translate and seek revelation.
Though it was not uncommon in Joseph Smith’s time and place to encounter people who claimed to use stones to search for lost or hidden objects, using a seer stone to translate an ancient record was unheard of. God gave Joseph Smith power to translate the Book of Mormon, redirecting Joseph’s use of the seer stone toward work of a spiritual nature.


Ralf Click Here

Ralf, I am not just making this up, this is what the LDS church teaches. Are you going to deny the charge, or support what Joseph acknowledged?
 
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Chuckle....what are you talking about, your timeline is out of wack as is you poor research abilities.

Introduction and Timeline​

After Joseph Smith received the golden plates in September 1827, he faced the difficult task of translating and publishing the record. In December 1827, Joseph and Emma moved from Manchester, New York, to Harmony, Pennsylvania, so that the couple could escape increasing persecution and so that Emma, then pregnant, could give birth closer to her family. In February 1828, Martin Harris arrived in Harmony to assist the Prophet. By June, the Prophet had translated 116 pages with Martin Harris as his scribe. Martin asked for Joseph’s permission to return to New York and show the manuscript pages to his wife and a few others, but the Lord forbade it. Because of Martin’s continual pleading, Joseph asked the Lord twice more, and the Lord permitted Martin to take the manuscript if he agreed to certain conditions. However, through Martin’s carelessness, the manuscript pages were taken by “wicked men” (D&C 10:8). Because of this mistake, Joseph Smith lost the gift to translate for a time. After the Prophet’s gift was restored, the Lord sent Oliver Cowdery to assist him in the work of translation.

September 22, 1827
Joseph Smith received the golden plates from the angel Moroni.

December 1827
Joseph and Emma Smith moved to Harmony, Pennsylvania, where Joseph began translating the Book of Mormon in earnest.

February 1828
Martin Harris took a transcript of some characters copied from the golden plates to scholars in New York City.

June–July 1828
Martin Harris lost 116 pages Joseph Smith had translated from the Book of Mormon.

April 5, 1829
Oliver Cowdery arrived in Harmony, Pennsylvania, to assist Joseph Smith with the translation of the golden plates.



.
When Emma wasn’t acting as a scribe, she was often doing the domestic chores needed for the survival and comfort of those actively involved in the translation. Easton-Flake and Cope noted, “Maintaining a home was a full-time occupation in early nineteenth-century America, and Emma, without any hired help, fulfilled this necessary role for Joseph and herself, as well as at times for Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery.”21

It is also apparent that Emma was deeply concerned for the success of the translation project. The loss of the 116 pages22 occurred during a time when Emma was severely sick and had just lost a baby in childbirth.23 Yet even in her sorrow and ill health, Emma told Joseph, “I feel so uneasy … that I cannot rest and shall not be at ease until I know something about what Mr. Harris is doing with [the borrowed manuscript].”24

These details help explain why the Lord chose Emma Smith as an “elect lady” to serve alongside her husband (Doctrine and Covenants 25:3). Her service as a scribe was essential. Her witness as an intimate observer and participant of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is convincing. And her faithfulness to the prophet Joseph Smith and to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is inspiring. In awe at her miraculous experiences, Emma herself remarked, “And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, and was present during the translation of the plates, and had cognizance of things as they transpired, it is marvelous to me, ‘a marvel and a wonder,’ as much so as to any one else.”25


Joseph and Emma moved from Manchester, New York, to Harmony, Pennsylvania, in December 1827 (see Joseph Smith—History 1:60–61). This move also allowed Emma, who was expecting her first baby, to be near her family.
HUH...what are you trying to assert here? What I wrote and linked compliments your timeline? Thank you.

But ...LOL...you linked a LDS site that supports my assertion of what the church teaches.

Explain that Oliver Cowdery stated that by “looking through” the Urim and Thummim, Joseph “was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraven upon the plates” (“Book of Mormon Translation,” Gospel Topics, topics.ChurchofJesusChrist.org). Some later historical accounts from individuals who were present while Joseph Smith translated, including Emma Smith and Martin Harris, indicate that Joseph sometimes used another instrument to translate the Book of Mormon. This instrument was a small oval stone, referred to as a seer stone, that Joseph discovered several years before he obtained the golden plates. These accounts indicate that Joseph would place either the interpreters or the seer stone into a hat to block out light, which allowed him to better see the words that appeared on the instrument. (See “Book of Mormon Translation,” topics.ChurchofJesusChrist.org; see also Richard E. Turley Jr., Robin S. Jensen, and Mark Ashurst-McGee, “Joseph the Seer,” Ensign, Oct. 2015, 51.)

Ignorance is indeed the softest pillow in which a man can rest his head.
 
Yes, it is not Biblical, however the LDS church is very clear Joseph was a money digger by definition.

Treasure Seeking

Joseph Smith’s critics often tried to disparage him by calling him a money digger or a treasure seeker. Rather than deny the charge, Joseph acknowledged in his official history that Josiah Stowell had hired him in 1825 to assist in a treasure-seeking venture in northern Pennsylvania.1 Stowell wanted his help because Joseph was reputed by some of his neighbors to be a “seer”—someone who could look into a special stone and find lost or hidden objects.2
Yes, that is a Church Article, so what Markk... lets look at the actual contract and where its obvious that it never mentions he was hired as to seek treasure with a seer stone. Additionally Marrk, that above highlighted sentence came from 1826 trial...

Joseph Smith’s 1826 Trial​

In 1826, Josiah Stowell hired Joseph Smith to help look for lost Spanish silver near the border of New York and Pennsylvania. Someone in the community, possibly a member of Stowell’s extended family, accused Joseph of gazing into a stone to discover lost property. As a result, Joseph was ordered to appear before justice of the peace Albert Neely in Chenango County, likely on charges of disorderly conduct.






ARTICLES OF AGREEMENT.
We, the undersigned, do firmly agree, & by these presents bind ourselves, to fulfill and abide by the hereafter specified articles:
First—That if anything of value should be obtained at a certain place in Pennsylvania near a Wm. Hale’s,1 supposed to be a valuable mine of either Gold or Silver and also to contain coined money and bars or ingots of Gold or Silver, and at which several hands have been at work during a considerable part of the past summer,2 we do agree to have it divided in the following manner, viz.: Josiah Stowell, Calvin Stowell3 and Wm. Hale to take two-thirds, and Charles Newton,4 Wm. I. Wiley,5 and the Widow Harper6 to take the other third. And we further agree that Joseph Smith, Sen. and Joseph Smith Jr. shall be considered as having two shares, two elevenths of all the property that may be obtained, the shares to be taken equally from each third.
Second—And we further agree, that in consideration of the expense and labor to which the following named persons have been at (John F. Shephard,7 Elihu Stowell8 and John Grant9) to consider them as equal sharers in the mine after all the coined money and bars or ingots are obtained by the undersigned, their shares to be taken out from each share; and we further agree to remunerate all the three above named persons in a handsome manner for all their time, expense and labor which they have been or may be at, until the mine is opened, if anything should be obtained; otherwise they are to lose their time, expense and labor.
Third—And we further agree that all the expense which has or may accrue until the mine is opened, shall be equally borne by the proprietors of each third and that after the mine is opened the expense shall be equally borne by each of the sharers.
Township of Harmony, Pa., Nov. 1, 1825.



“Seeing” and “seers” were part of the culture in which Joseph Smith grew up. Some people in the early 19th century believed it was possible for gifted individuals to see lost objects by means of material objects such as stones. Joseph Smith and his family, like many around them, accepted these familiar folk practices.
In the 1820s, a fascination with purported Spanish treasure deposits led prospectors like Josiah Stowell to enlist the aid of seers like Joseph in their search for treasure.3 Stowell trusted Joseph, sought his assistance in seeking treasure, and even took his advice to finally give up the hunt. Joseph Smith Sr. considered his son’s ability sacred and hoped he would cease using it to look for earthly treasures.4 As Joseph prepared to translate the Book of Mormon, he was commanded to have nothing further to do with those who sought treasure and instead use his gift to translate and seek revelation.
Though it was not uncommon in Joseph Smith’s time and place to encounter people who claimed to use stones to search for lost or hidden objects, using a seer stone to translate an ancient record was unheard of. God gave Joseph Smith power to translate the Book of Mormon, redirecting Joseph’s use of the seer stone toward work of a spiritual nature.


Ralf Click Here

Ralf, I am not just making this up, this is what the LDS church teaches.

Joseph Smith Papers....

JSP Continued, “By 1826, JS had at least two seer stones, and according to Brigham Young he eventually had five seer stones.(5

It is true that Joseph Smith is known to have a stone or two that he found early before he found the items in Hill Cumorah.

JSP Continued, According to JS, in 1823 an angelic messenger revealed to him the location of gold plates and an instrument with which to translate them.(6

This is very accurate as the JSP agreed the instrument, not a stone, would be used to translate the plates.

JSP Continued, This instrument consisted of “two stones in silver bows” that had been used by “seers in ancient times.”(7

True, see JSH 1:35,52,62,75*; Mosiah 28:13, 20; Ether 3:22-23; 4:5; Alma 37:21, 24-25

JSP Continued, “
The Book of Mormon itself referred to “interpreters” that were to be kept with the plates.(8

True. As a matter of fact the word “Interpreters” was the only word used in the entire Book of Mormon text to describe the two stones in a silver bow. the words Urim and Thummim are never spoke of in the Book of Mormon.

The Prophet was reluctant to give the details about the translation. In a Church conference held 25–26 October 1831 in Orange, Ohio, Hyrum requested that a firsthand account of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon be given. But the Prophet said, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.” Joseph explained in an open letter to a newspaper editor in 1833 the heart of the matter, but he gave few particulars, stating that the Book of Mormon was “found through the ministration of an holy angel, and translated into our own language by the gift and power of God.” His explanation is consistent with the Doctrine and Covenants, which says that he was granted “power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon” (D&C 1:29) and that the Lord “gave him power from on high, by the means [Page 126]which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon” (D&C 20:8).7

 
Yes, that is a Church Article, so what Markk... lets look at the actual contract and where its obvious that it never mentions he was hired as to seek treasure with a seer stone. Additionally Marrk, that above highlighted sentence came from 1826 trial...

Joseph Smith’s 1826 Trial​

In 1826, Josiah Stowell hired Joseph Smith to help look for lost Spanish silver near the border of New York and Pennsylvania. Someone in the community, possibly a member of Stowell’s extended family, accused Joseph of gazing into a stone to discover lost property. As a result, Joseph was ordered to appear before justice of the peace Albert Neely in Chenango County, likely on charges of disorderly conduct.






ARTICLES OF AGREEMENT.
We, the undersigned, do firmly agree, & by these presents bind ourselves, to fulfill and abide by the hereafter specified articles:
First—That if anything of value should be obtained at a certain place in Pennsylvania near a Wm. Hale’s,1 supposed to be a valuable mine of either Gold or Silver and also to contain coined money and bars or ingots of Gold or Silver, and at which several hands have been at work during a considerable part of the past summer,2 we do agree to have it divided in the following manner, viz.: Josiah Stowell, Calvin Stowell3 and Wm. Hale to take two-thirds, and Charles Newton,4 Wm. I. Wiley,5 and the Widow Harper6 to take the other third. And we further agree that Joseph Smith, Sen. and Joseph Smith Jr. shall be considered as having two shares, two elevenths of all the property that may be obtained, the shares to be taken equally from each third.
Second—And we further agree, that in consideration of the expense and labor to which the following named persons have been at (John F. Shephard,7 Elihu Stowell8 and John Grant9) to consider them as equal sharers in the mine after all the coined money and bars or ingots are obtained by the undersigned, their shares to be taken out from each share; and we further agree to remunerate all the three above named persons in a handsome manner for all their time, expense and labor which they have been or may be at, until the mine is opened, if anything should be obtained; otherwise they are to lose their time, expense and labor.
Third—And we further agree that all the expense which has or may accrue until the mine is opened, shall be equally borne by the proprietors of each third and that after the mine is opened the expense shall be equally borne by each of the sharers.
Township of Harmony, Pa., Nov. 1, 1825.





Joseph Smith Papers....

JSP Continued, “By 1826, JS had at least two seer stones, and according to Brigham Young he eventually had five seer stones.(5

It is true that Joseph Smith is known to have a stone or two that he found early before he found the items in Hill Cumorah.

JSP Continued, According to JS, in 1823 an angelic messenger revealed to him the location of gold plates and an instrument with which to translate them.(6

This is very accurate as the JSP agreed the instrument, not a stone, would be used to translate the plates.

JSP Continued, This instrument consisted of “two stones in silver bows” that had been used by “seers in ancient times.”(7

True, see JSH 1:35,52,62,75*; Mosiah 28:13, 20; Ether 3:22-23; 4:5; Alma 37:21, 24-25

JSP Continued, “
The Book of Mormon itself referred to “interpreters” that were to be kept with the plates.(8

True. As a matter of fact the word “Interpreters” was the only word used in the entire Book of Mormon text to describe the two stones in a silver bow. the words Urim and Thummim are never spoke of in the Book of Mormon.

The Prophet was reluctant to give the details about the translation. In a Church conference held 25–26 October 1831 in Orange, Ohio, Hyrum requested that a firsthand account of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon be given. But the Prophet said, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.” Joseph explained in an open letter to a newspaper editor in 1833 the heart of the matter, but he gave few particulars, stating that the Book of Mormon was “found through the ministration of an holy angel, and translated into our own language by the gift and power of God.” His explanation is consistent with the Doctrine and Covenants, which says that he was granted “power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon” (D&C 1:29) and that the Lord “gave him power from on high, by the means [Page 126]which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon” (D&C 20:8).7

Still waiting Markk...
 
Still waiting Markk...
Yes, that is a Church Article, so what Markk... lets look at the actual contract and where its obvious that it never mentions he was hired as to seek treasure with a seer stone. Additionally Marrk, that above highlighted sentence came from 1826 trial...

Joseph Smith’s 1826 Trial​

In 1826, Josiah Stowell hired Joseph Smith to help look for lost Spanish silver near the border of New York and Pennsylvania. Someone in the community, possibly a member of Stowell’s extended family, accused Joseph of gazing into a stone to discover lost property. As a result, Joseph was ordered to appear before justice of the peace Albert Neely in Chenango County, likely on charges of disorderly conduct.
Focus really hard.

1. It reads Stowell hired ..."Joseph Smith to look for lost silver... "
2. The article I linked you too is about Seer's, not about common laborers. Read the article in context.
3. The actual trial accounts, in which Joseph Smith himself told the judge this: ... "Prisoner examined, says, that he came from town of Palmyra and, had been at the house of Josiah Stowel[l]s in Bainbridge most of time since, had small part of times been employed in looking for mines,—but the major par[t] had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school, That he had a certain stone, which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were, that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stow[e]l several times and informed him where h[e] could find those treasures, and Mr. Sto[w]el had been engaged in digging for them—that at Palmyra he had pretended to tell by looking at this stone, where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra he had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he has occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for 3 years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of injuring his Health, especially his eyes, made them sore—that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business... ." Ralf Click Here
 
Focus really hard.

1. It reads Stowell hired ..."Joseph Smith to look for lost silver... "
This is important Markk, it was lost Spanish Silver, this is from folks in the reason that bantered about that this was a treasure waiting to be dug up.

2. The article I linked you too is about Seer's, not about common laborers. Read the article in context.

The contract which is more detailed and accurate never stated a seer stone was to be used.... hired as laborer and given a share if found.


3. The actual trial accounts, in which Joseph Smith himself told the judge this: ... "Prisoner examined, says, that he came from town of Palmyra and, had been at the house of Josiah Stowel[l]s in Bainbridge most of time since, had small part of times been employed in looking for mines,—but the major par[t] had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school, That he had a certain stone, which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were, that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stow[e]l several times and informed him where h[e] could find those treasures, and Mr. Sto[w]el had been engaged in digging for them—that at Palmyra he had pretended to tell by looking at this stone, where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra he had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he has occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for 3 years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of injuring his Health, especially his eyes, made them sore—that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business... ." Ralf Click Here

Critics claim Josiah Stowell was victimized by Joseph Smith, but Josiah’s actions indicate that he never would of agreed with them. He remained a staunch supporter of the Prophet throughout his life.​

The nephew who brought charges seems to have had religious issues with Joseph: “Within a month after the trial he was licensed as an exhorter by the Methodists and within three years had helped establish the West Bainbridge Methodist Church. Upon his death in 1872 his fellow ministers characterized him as 'an ardent Methodist and any attack upon either the doctrines or the polity of the Methodist Episcopal Church, within his field of labor, was sure to be repelled by him with a vigorous hand." Is it possible that the trial of Joseph Smith was just one of his first attempts to apply a "vigorous hand?"


Oliver Cowdery account in the Messenger and Advocate
Oliver Cowdery
Oct, 1835
While employed here he became acquainted with the family of Isaac Hale... while in that country, some very officious person complained of him as a disorderly person, and brought him before the authorities of the country; but there being no cause of action he was honorably acquited.

Seems the witnesses were not believed Markk...
  1. Misdemeanor trials were not recorded in New York at that time, just felony trials, which is confirmed with the rest of Judge Neely's record.
  2. In addition to Justice Neely’s costs of $2.68. There is also an amount of $.19 listed as “warrants.” Constable De Zeng presented a bill for that amount. Now it happens that $.19 was the prescribed amount for a pretrial mittimus (warrant of commitment to prison for lack of bail), as set down in A Conductor Generalis of 1819. In other words, it was the amount the constable would charge for bringing an accused person in. If Justice Neely had found that there was a case for Joseph to answer, he would have ordered him bound over for trial at the next court of General Sessions, and De Zeng would have charged an additional $.25, which was the prescribed amount for a posttrial warrant of commitment. But that charge was not levied; therefore, Joseph was not remanded to the custody of the constable, and so he was, in all probability, acquitted. That is precisely what Oliver Cowdery reported in Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate

To fulfill prophecy.​

In 1838, Joseph Smith remembered that Moroni had prophesied that both “good and evil” would be spoken of him “among all people” (Joseph Smith—History 1:33). Among the ongoing examples of “evil” spoken of Joseph are accusations that he defrauded people out of their money, by fraudulently pretending to have the gift of seership. While rumors and hearsay filled with such accusations abounded, the claims made by Joseph’s critics never stood up to historical and legal scrutiny.

The acquittal of Joseph against charges of being a “disorderly person” in March 1826 provides but one example of the typical pattern. Skeptics who doubted the legitimacy of Joseph’s gifts failed to make a compelling case against him in the court of law, but that failure has not stopped critics still today from trying to pin these old charges on Joseph anew. Madsen’s skilled analysis of the 1826 trial clarifies the nature of the evidence and demonstrates that Joseph was truly found innocent of the charges brought against him.

 
Ralf wrote...It is true that Joseph Smith is known to have a stone or two that he found early before he found the items in Hill Cumorah.
Great, you concede he owned seer stones.


JSP Continued, According to JS, in 1823 an angelic messenger revealed to him the location of gold plates and an instrument with which to translate them.(6

This is very accurate as the JSP agreed the instrument, not a stone, would be used to translate the plates.

How does this contradict anything I have asserted? and when was this written and by whom? follow the foot notes.


JSP Continued, This instrument consisted of “two stones in silver bows” that had been used by “seers in ancient times.”(7

True, see JSH 1:35,52,62,75*; Mosiah 28:13, 20; Ether 3:22-23; 4:5; Alma 37:21, 24-25
Explain what the BoM verses mean here and how it ties in, and who was this written by and when...follow the foot t note
JSP Continued, “The Book of Mormon itself referred to “interpreters” that were to be kept with the plates.(8

True. As a matter of fact the word “Interpreters” was the only word used in the entire Book of Mormon text to describe the two stones in a silver bow. the words Urim and Thummim are never spoke of in the Book of Mormon.
Okay...so what are you asserting? How does this compliment or contradict what I have asserted?
The Prophet was reluctant to give the details about the translation. In a Church conference held 25–26 October 1831 in Orange, Ohio, Hyrum requested that a firsthand account of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon be given. But the Prophet said, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.” Joseph explained in an open letter to a newspaper editor in 1833 the heart of the matter, but he gave few particulars, stating that the Book of Mormon was “found through the ministration of an holy angel, and translated into our own language by the gift and power of God.” His explanation is consistent with the Doctrine and Covenants, which says that he was granted “power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon” (D&C 1:29) and that the Lord “gave him power from on high, by the means [Page 126]which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon” (D&C 20:8).7

And... what else did the link you gave assert? Let me give you a hint...read the article, and you will see it defends Joseph using the seer stone in the hat...the hint is if you don't want to study and read...just go to the conclusion of the paper.

..." It is clear from the contemporary accounts that the object placed within the hat could either be the spectacles or the seer [Page 188]stone. Both were classified by the early Latter-day Saints as “Urim and Thummim.” It is therefore safe to say that, regardless of which actual instrument Joseph was using at any particular point in time, he did indeed translate the entire Book of Mormon using the Urim and Thummim... ."

Ralf...this is exactly what i have been saying the church teaches. It is what Nelson said in the video, what the church teaches on LDS . org.
 
This is important Markk, it was lost Spanish Silver, this is from folks in the reason that bantered about that this was a treasure waiting to be dug up.
Ralf it was a myth and folk lore...there was never anything found, never.

The contract which is more detailed and accurate never stated a seer stone was to be used.... hired as laborer and given a share if found.
LOL...ralf, what did he use then given his history?

I have no idea what the rest of your post is trying to convey?
 
Great, you concede he owned seer stones.

Chuckle, have I not admitted the Church has the so called seer stone... I know nothing about seer stones unless they meant the two clear lens stones in the spectacles.


How does this contradict anything I have asserted? and when was this written and by whom? follow the foot notes.
This came from a post of yours, I just showed you the mess you made of it... chuckle.

Explain what the BoM verses mean here and how it ties in, and who was this written by and when...follow the foot t note

Jospeh Smith Papers, do the research...


Okay...so what are you asserting? How does this compliment or contradict what I have asserted?
Why all the questions, I'm looking for a response not questions.


And... what else did the link you gave assert? Let me give you a hint...read the article, and you will see it defends Joseph using the seer stone in the hat...the hint is if you don't want to study and read...just go to the conclusion of the paper.

..." It is clear from the contemporary accounts that the object placed within the hat could either be the spectacles or the seer [Page 188]stone. Both were classified by the early Latter-day Saints as “Urim and Thummim.” It is therefore safe to say that, regardless of which actual instrument Joseph was using at any particular point in time, he did indeed translate the entire Book of Mormon using the Urim and Thummim... ."

Ralf...this is exactly what i have been saying the church teaches. It is what Nelson said in the video, what the church teaches on LDS . org.
You're not paying attention to my replies, quit with the questions and start refuting my posts... thx.
 
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