Especially For Markk, Joseph Smith Treasure Digging.

This came from a post of yours, I just showed you the mess you made of it... chuckle.



Jospeh Smith Papers, do the research...



Why all the questions, I'm looking for a response not questions.




You're not paying attention to my replies, quit with the questions and start refuting my posts... thx.
ralf, your posts are just pastes without your narrative and positions. I am asking you question so you can expound on whatever position you hold.

So, the church is in total error by uploading pictures of the seer stone, teaching about it on their website , and having an exhibit for it at their museum.
Jospeh Smith Papers, do the research...

Ralf, it is clear you can't explain what you position is...
 
ralf, your posts are just pastes without your narrative and positions. I am asking you question so you can expound on whatever position you hold.

So, the church is in total error by uploading pictures of the seer stone, teaching about it on their website , and having an exhibit for it at their museum.


Ralf, it is clear you can't explain what you position is...
Well good buddy, I have noticed you only rely on Church sources that they themselves can not verify, Even Pres. Nelson stated there are many accounts.... but you have to date been absent in providing me any difinitive proof by a first hand account of the method... I just posted Martin Harris and even he admitted to the two stones from the Urim and Thummim were placed in a hat....
 
Well good buddy, I have noticed you only rely on Church sources that they themselves can not verify, Even Pres. Nelson stated there are many accounts.... but you have to date been absent in providing me any difinitive proof by a first hand account of the method... I just posted Martin Harris and even he admitted to the two stones from the Urim and Thummim were placed in a hat....
Ralf, I am using official church sources, because I am trying to be fair in relating what the church teaches. There are many accounts Ralf, which is why there is a reliable evidence pool. I have given you firsthand accounts....once again, those of Emma, Martin, David and Elizabeth.

I just posted Martin Harris and even he admitted to the two stones from the Urim and Thummim were placed in a hat....

Ralf, the church teaches that the seer stone, and the interpreters, both called the U&T, were interchangeably put in his hat.
 
Ralf, I am using official church sources, because I am trying to be fair in relating what the church teaches. There are many accounts Ralf, which is why there is a reliable evidence pool. I have given you firsthand accounts....once again, those of Emma, Martin, David and Elizabeth.
Yes you used Pres. Nelson and did not bother to look close enought to see what he really stated..... he said, the used a hat and placed the Urimand thummim seer stones in it... not stone but stones as if in my opinion the seers stones from the Urim and Thummin he said in the video.

Go back and play it over and over, you got it wrong and now you have to live by that mistake, seer stones from the Urim and Thummim Markk.






Ralf, the church teaches that the seer stone, and the interpreters, both called the U&T, were interchangeably put in his hat.
Where Markk, where.
 
Yes you used Pres. Nelson and did not bother to look close enought to see what he really stated..... he said, the used a hat and placed the Urimand thummim seer stones in it... not stone but stones as if in my opinion the seers stones from the Urim and Thummin he said in the video.

Go back and play it over and over, you got it wrong and now you have to live by that mistake, seer stones from the Urim and Thummim Markk.







Where Markk, where.


Ralf, I don't have to play it they give you the option for the transcript...which reads...

We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position.

Ralf, Joseph had at least five stones...Daivid had a stone, Hiram page,

In your opinion what is the Urim and Thummim?

..." By 1833, Joseph Smith and his associates began using the biblical term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to any stones used to receive divine revelations, including both the Nephite interpreters and the single seer stone. This imprecise terminology has complicated attempts to reconstruct the exact method by which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. In addition to using the interpreters, according to Martin Harris, Joseph also used one of his seer stones for convenience during the Book of Mormon translation. Other sources corroborate Joseph’s changing translation instruments... ."

Ralf, this is exactly why the church teaches they were used interchangeably.

And just so there are no more excuses, the church teaches it is a fact that he used one stone...

In fact, historical evidence shows that in addition to the two seer stones known as “interpreters,” Joseph Smith used at least one other seer stone in translating the Book of Mormon, often placing it into a hat in order to block out light. According to Joseph’s contemporaries, he did this in order to better view the words on the stone.

Click Here Ralf
 
Ralf, I don't have to play it they give you the option for the transcript...which reads...

We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position.
Thank you Markk, finally I got you to acknowledge the above which destroys your prattling about Pres. Nelson agreeing with you... UT seer stones (plural) in a hat... oh boy!

JS described them best:

“…that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.”



Ralf, Joseph had at least five stones...Daivid had a stone, Hiram page,

In your opinion what is the Urim and Thummim?
So what, only the one seer stone is ever stated as the one in the hat, he could have one hundred and still not make it any differrent, we are debating the one used and found by JS that the Church still has...

Urim and Thummin
JS described them best:
“…that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.”








..." By 1833, Joseph Smith and his associates began using the biblical term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to any stones used to receive divine revelations, including both the Nephite interpreters and the single seer stone. This imprecise terminology has complicated attempts to reconstruct the exact method by which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. In addition to using the interpreters, according to Martin Harris, Joseph also used one of his seer stones for convenience during the Book of Mormon translation. Other sources corroborate Joseph’s changing translation instruments... ."

Ralf, this is exactly why the church teaches they were used interchangeably.

And just so there are no more excuses, the church teaches it is a fact that he used one stone...

In fact, historical evidence shows that in addition to the two seer stones known as “interpreters,” Joseph Smith used at least one other seer stone in translating the Book of Mormon, often placing it into a hat in order to block out light. According to Joseph’s contemporaries, he did this in order to better view the words on the stone.

Click Here Ralf
In later years, as Joseph told his remarkable story, he emphasized his visions and other spiritual experiences.9 Some of his former associates focused on his early use of seer stones in an effort to destroy his reputation in a world that increasingly rejected such practices. In their proselyting efforts, Joseph and other early members chose not to focus on the influence of folk culture, as many prospective converts were experiencing a transformation in how they understood religion in the Age of Reason. In what became canonized revelations, however, Joseph continued to teach that seer stones and other seeric devices, as well as the ability to work with them, were important and sacred gifts from God.10
Same source you used Markk.

The text of the Book of Mormon calls these stones “interpreters” and explains that they “were prepared from the beginning, and were handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages,” being “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” (Mosiah 28:14‒15, 20).
Same Source Markk...

The book also recounts how the Lord gave “two stones” to the brother of Jared, with a promise that they would aid future generations to recover his words. “Write these things and seal them up,” the Lord directs him, “and I will show them in mine own due time unto the children of men.” These stones, the Lord explains, “shall magnify to the eyes of men these things which ye shall write” (Ether 3:24, 27).
Same source Markk...

By 1833, Joseph Smith and his associates began using the biblical term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to any stones used to receive divine revelations, including both the Nephite interpreters and the single seer stone. This imprecise terminology has complicated attempts to reconstruct the exact method by which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.
Same source Markk...

Elder Orson Pratt (1811–81), a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and later Church Historian, Joseph had also matured by this time in his spiritual understanding. At a meeting on June 28, 1874, attended by President Brigham Young and many other General Authorities, Elder Pratt told his audience about being “present many times” when Joseph Smith “was translating the New Testament.” Seeing no interpretive instruments in use during the translation process, he wondered why Joseph “did not use the Urim and Thummim, as in translating the Book of Mormon.”
Same source Markk

Joseph Smith: “said that it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon” and “that it was not expedient for him to relate these things.”
Same source Markk.
 
Thank you Markk, finally I got you to acknowledge the above which destroys your prattling about Pres. Nelson agreeing with you... UT seer stones (plural) in a hat... oh boy!

Seer Stones ralf, he had several. Note they are called "seer stones "

..."According to Joseph Smith’s history, he returned the Urim and Thummim, or Nephite “interpreters,” to the angel. But what became of the other seer stone or stones that Joseph used in translating the Book of Mormon?

David Whitmer wrote that “after the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished, early in the spring of 1830, before April 6th, Joseph gave the stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the stone any more.”26

Oliver, who was outside the Church for a decade until being rebaptized in 1848, planned to go west to be with the Saints in Utah, but he died in 1850 in Richmond, Missouri, before making the trip.27 Phineas Young, who had helped bring Oliver Cowdery back into the Church, obtained the seer stone from Oliver’s widow, who was David Whitmer’s sister, Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery. Phineas in turn gave it to his brother Brigham Young.28


“I have Joseph[’]s 1st Seer Stone which I [h]ad from O[liver] C[owdery],” President Young acknowledged in 1853. There were others as well. “Joseph [h]ad 3 which Emma has,” he added, “2 small ones and 1 large one.”29 Two years later, Brigham Young told a group of assembled Church leaders that “Oliver sent me Joseph’s first Seer stone, Oliver always kept it until he sent it to me.” ..."

After Brigham Young died, one of his wives, Zina D. H. Young, who later became the third Relief Society general president, obtained a chocolate-colored seer stone from his estate that matched descriptions of the stone Joseph used to translate the Book of Mormon, and donated it to the Church.31 Since that time, subsequent Church leaders have acknowledged the Church’s ownership of the seer stone.32


Click Here Ralf
 
JS described them best:
“…that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.”
He was describing the interpreters...???? Which according to the church were used interchangeably with the seer stones, yet all called the U&T.
So what, only the one seer stone is ever stated as the one in the hat, he could have one hundred and still not make it any differrent, we are debating the one used and found by JS that the Church still has...
LOL, so you concede he used one seer stone in the hat, as the church teaches to translate the BoM.

No, we are not...the church has other stones also, even the "white one." do your homework ralf, or just read what I have written, I have stated this fact may times.

From Fair... even they understand he had many Seer Stones...plural.

Joseph had between two to four seer stones

Joseph first used a neighbor's seer stone (probably Sally Chase, on the balance of historical evidence, though there are other possibilities) to discover the location of a brown, baby's foot-shaped stone. The vision of this stone likely occurred in about 1819–1820, and he obtained his first seer stone in about 1821–1822.[7]

Joseph then used this first stone to find a second stone (a white one). The color and sequence of obtaining these stones has often been confused,[8] and readers interested in an in-depth treatment are referred to the endnotes.[9]


Joseph would later discover at least two more seers stones in Nauvoo, on the banks of the Mississippi. These stones seem to have been collected more for their appearance, and there is little evidence of Joseph using them at that late date in his prophetic career.

Read the hole page... https://www.fairlatterdaysaints(DOT)org/answers/Joseph_Smith%27s_use_of_seer_stones_as_a_youth
 
Seer Stones ralf, he had several. Note they are called "seer stones "

..."According to Joseph Smith’s history, he returned the Urim and Thummim, or Nephite “interpreters,” to the angel. But what became of the other seer stone or stones that Joseph used in translating the Book of Mormon?

Great, and what post or history did JS leave about other stones, nothing, I can find nothing about the use of other stones, you're really streaching to make stones (plural) work for you... and even your pet David never said anything about other stones, nor did Cowdery, Harris or Emma who were first hand accounts of the method of translation... nice try, but totally irrelevant buddy.

David Whitmer wrote that “after the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished, early in the spring of 1830, before April 6th, Joseph gave the stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the stone any more.”26
Chuckle, David Whitmer???? oh boy, I thought by now even you would see the difficulty of using him for anything other the being one of the three witnesses...

Oliver, who was outside the Church for a decade until being rebaptized in 1848, planned to go west to be with the Saints in Utah, but he died in 1850 in Richmond, Missouri, before making the trip.27 Phineas Young, who had helped bring Oliver Cowdery back into the Church, obtained the seer stone from Oliver’s widow, who was David Whitmer’s sister, Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery. Phineas in turn gave it to his brother Brigham Young.
Van Wagoner and Walker write:

David Whitmer indicated that the seer stone was later given to Oliver Cowdery: "After the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished early in the spring of 1830 before April 6th, Joseph gave the Stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the Stone anymore.” Whitmer, who was Cowdery's brother-in-law, stated that on Oliver's death in 1848, another brother-in-law, "Phineas Young, a brother of Brigham Young, and an old-time and once intimate friend of the Cowdery family came out from Salt Lake City, and during his visit he contrived to get the stone from its hiding place, through a little deceptive sophistry, extended upon the grief-stricken widow. When he returned to Utah he carried it in triumph to the apostles of Brigham Young's 'lion house.'"...
[Van Wagoner and Walker here confuse the two seer stones, so this section is not included here, given that better information has since come to light.]

“I have Joseph[’]s 1st Seer Stone which I [h]ad from O[liver] C[owdery],” President Young acknowledged in 1853. There were others as well. “Joseph [h]ad 3 which Emma has,” he added, “2 small ones and 1 large one.”29 Two years later, Brigham Young told a group of assembled Church leaders that “Oliver sent me Joseph’s first Seer stone, Oliver always kept it until he sent it to me.” ..."

After Brigham Young died, one of his wives, Zina D. H. Young, who later became the third Relief Society general president, obtained a chocolate-colored seer stone from his estate that matched descriptions of the stone Joseph used to translate the Book of Mormon, and donated it to the Church.31 Since that time, subsequent Church leaders have acknowledged the Church’s ownership of the seer stone.32


Click Here Ralf
Same source Markk....

Joseph related that when he finally obtained the plates from Moroni in 1827, he also received two stones to be used in translating them. He and close acquaintances left accounts of these stones, describing them as white or clear in appearance, set in silver bows or rims like modern eyeglasses or spectacles, and connected to a large breastplate.12 As described, this seeric device would have been bulky. Joseph Smith’s mother said that he detached the stones from the breastplate for convenience while using them.13


Very interesting Markk.... his mother said the separated the stones (plural) for convience using them....
Many of the accounts use the term stones (plural) in their accounts.... making it very sketchy as to what they thought he was using... a single seer stone or clear white stones, again plural, in a hat...
 
Great, and what post or history did JS leave about other stones, nothing, I can find nothing about the use of other stones, you're really streaching to make stones (plural) work for you... and even your pet David never said anything about other stones, nor did Cowdery, Harris or Emma who were first hand accounts of the method of translation... nice try, but totally irrelevant buddy.

Ralf, the church has at least two other stones that know of, Brigham Young states he had more. You can either believe that or continue to deny it. This is no different than when you denied Joseph had sex with some of his wives, eventually you will understand and concede, nor because of what i say, but you will finally realize I am only the messenger of what the church teaches. But we will just add Brigham young to the group of liars and progressives until you concede ...

“I have Joseph[’]s 1st Seer Stone which I [h]ad from O[liver] C[owdery],” President Young acknowledged in 1853. There were others as well. “Joseph [h]ad 3 which Emma has,” he added, “2 small ones and 1 large one.”29 Two years later, Brigham Young told a group of assembled Church leaders that “Oliver sent me Joseph’s first Seer stone, Oliver always kept it until he sent it to me.”
 
Chuckle, David Whitmer???? oh boy, I thought by now even you would see the difficulty of using him for anything other the being one of the three witnesses...
lol.. focus, the church uses him "because" he is one of the three witnesses. classic Ralf.

Ralf pasted...David Whitmer indicated that the seer stone was later given to Oliver Cowdery: "After the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished early in the spring of 1830 before April 6th, Joseph gave the Stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the Stone anymore.” Whitmer, who was Cowdery's brother-in-law, stated that on Oliver's death in 1848, another brother-in-law, "Phineas Young, a brother of Brigham Young, and an old-time and once intimate friend of the Cowdery family came out from Salt Lake City, and during his visit he contrived to get the stone from its hiding place, through a little deceptive sophistry, extended upon the grief-stricken widow. When he returned to Utah he carried it in triumph to the apostles of Brigham Young's 'lion house.'"...
[Van Wagoner and Walker here confuse the two seer stones, so this section is not included here, given that better information has since come to light.]

And, what is you point? what I pasted the better info that reads...again show you have no idea what you are reading and pasting...it reads the church has the brown stone and the white stone.

...Joseph Fielding Smith, as an apostle, made clear that "the Seer Stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days . . . is now in the possession of the Church." Elder Joseph Anderson, Assistant to the Council of the Twelve and long-time secretary to the First Presidency, clarified in 1971 that the "Seer Stone that Joseph Smith used in the early days of the Church is in possession of the Church and is kept in a safe in Joseph Fielding Smith's office.... [The stone is] slightly smaller than a chicken egg, oval, chocolate in color."[1] (This would be Joseph's first, "shoe-shaped stone," which was given to Oliver Cowdery, and then to his brother-in-law Phineas Young, brother of Brigham Young.[2]
Joseph's second (white) stone is also in the possession of the LDS First Presidency.[3]
 
Same source Markk....

Joseph related that when he finally obtained the plates from Moroni in 1827, he also received two stones to be used in translating them. He and close acquaintances left accounts of these stones, describing them as white or clear in appearance, set in silver bows or rims like modern eyeglasses or spectacles, and connected to a large breastplate.12 As described, this seeric device would have been bulky. Joseph Smith’s mother said that he detached the stones from the breastplate for convenience while using them.13


Very interesting Markk.... his mother said the separated the stones (plural) for convience using them....
Many of the accounts use the term stones (plural) in their accounts.... making it very sketchy as to what they thought he was using... a single seer stone or clear white stones, again plural, in a hat...
Was his mother there in the Whitmer home Ralf? But what she said fits within the teaching of the church that he used the interpreter and the seer stone interchangeable. But the above shows you hypocrisy of demanding firsthand witnesses.

The church teaches...

These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.
 
Ralf, the church has at least two other stones that know of, Brigham Young states he had more. You can either believe that or continue to deny it. This is no different than when you denied Joseph had sex with some of his wives, eventually you will understand and concede, nor because of what i say, but you will finally realize I am only the messenger of what the church teaches. But we will just add Brigham young to the group of liars and progressives until you concede ...

“I have Joseph[’]s 1st Seer Stone which I [h]ad from O[liver] C[owdery],” President Young acknowledged in 1853. There were others as well. “Joseph [h]ad 3 which Emma has,” he added, “2 small ones and 1 large one.”29 Two years later, Brigham Young told a group of assembled Church leaders that “Oliver sent me Joseph’s first Seer stone, Oliver always kept it until he sent it to me.”
Joseph Smith’s brother William may have also witnessed the Book of Mormon translation in the earliest days. If not, he must have been privy to discussions about the process. In a pamphlet that he published in 1883, he wrote,

He translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim, (which he obtained with the plates), and the power of God. The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God.41




Peter Bauder, a minister who interviewed Joseph Smith at the Whitmer home in 1830, reported in a book he published in 1834 that Joseph Smith told of having “obtained a parcel of plate resembling gold, on which were engraved what he did not understand, only by the aid of a glass which he also obtained with the plate, by which means he was enabled to translate the characters on the plate into English.”59 Bauder refers to the interpreters as a “glass,” a local term for seer stone.60

Truman Coe, a pastor in Kirtland, Ohio, reported the following in 1836:

The manner of translation was as wonderful as the discovery. By putting his finger on one of the characters and imploring divine aid, then looking through the Urim and Thummim, he would see the import written in plain English on a screen placed before him. After delivering this to his emanuensi, he would again proceed in the same manner and obtain the [Page 43]meaning of the next character, and so on till he came to a part of the plates which were sealed up, and there was commanded to desist: and he says he has a promise from God that in due time he will enable him to translate the remainder. This is the relation as given by Smith. …The book thus produced, is called by them The Book of Mormon, and is pretended to be of the same Divine Inspiration and authority as the Bible.61
 
Ralf wrote...Joseph Smith’s brother William may have also witnessed the Book of Mormon translation in the earliest days. If not, he must have been privy to discussions about the process. In a pamphlet that he published in 1883, he wrote,

He translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim, (which he obtained with the plates), and the power of God. The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God.41

As far as I know, William never went to the Whitmer Farm, so if he was an eye witness it would have been the 116 pages. But I agree he would have had a pretty good idea of the process. But what we can gather is that ...he translated the book of Mormon by putting either the interpreter or a stone in his hat, and the words appeared on the stone, with no need of looking at the plates; noting the plates were covered up.

This agrees with the church's teaching that the interpreter and the stone were used interchangeably as it reads in the essay.

Peter Bauder, a minister who interviewed Joseph Smith at the Whitmer home in 1830, reported in a book he published in 1834 that Joseph Smith told of having “obtained a parcel of plate resembling gold, on which were engraved what he did not understand, only by the aid of a glass which he also obtained with the plate, by which means he was enabled to translate the characters on the plate into English.”59 Bauder refers to the interpreters as a “glass,” a local term for seer stone.60
Well, did you read what this says? The "seer stone" is called a "glass." Which compliments Joseph being a "Glasslooker."
 
As far as I know, William never went to the Whitmer Farm, so if he was an eye witness it would have been the 116 pages. But I agree he would have had a pretty good idea of the process. But what we can gather is that ...he translated the book of Mormon by putting either the interpreter or a stone in his hat, and the words appeared on the stone, with no need of looking at the plates; noting the plates were covered up.

That's the point, "as far as I know ".. you don't know nor provide much depth in your replies.

This agrees with the church's teaching that the interpreter and the stone were used interchangeably as it reads in the essay.


Well, did you read what this says? The "seer stone" is called a "glass." Which compliments Joseph being a "Glasslooker."
"only by the aid of a glass which he also obtained with the plate, " Yes Markk, my feeling is that there is so much confusion that the glass or Urim and Thummim which were with the Gold plates somehow were later compared to the seer stone JS had but was not glass or a white and clear as other had plainly stated was put in the hat.... also seer stone is ofter stated as seer stones. Even Pres. Nelson said word for word, Urim and Thummim seer stones... Its to the point even you seem confused, most like due to the fact you depend to much on second and third hand accounts. The actual witnesses make your claims basically untrue, doubtful and debatable.
 
Markk said:
As far as I know, William never went to the Whitmer Farm, so if he was an eye witness it would have been the 116 pages. But I agree he would have had a pretty good idea of the process. But what we can gather is that ...he translated the book of Mormon by putting either the interpreter or a stone in his hat, and the words appeared on the stone, with no need of looking at the plates; noting the plates were covered up
That's the point, "as far as I know ".. you don't know nor provide much depth in your replies.
Well, did he? I have not read anything that I can recall that related William going to the Whitmer Farm. What was he an eyewitness to?

You did not answer what I wrote, If he was a witness, William agreed with what the church teaches, which you apparently deny. What is ironic, it that I still don't know what your position is...do you. Please state what you position is? What were the mechanics.
 
"only by the aid of a glass which he also obtained with the plate, " Yes Markk, my feeling is that there is so much confusion that the glass or Urim and Thummim which were with the Gold plates somehow were later compared to the seer stone JS had but was not glass or a white and clear as other had plainly stated was put in the hat.... also seer stone is ofter stated as seer stones. Even Pres. Nelson said word for word, Urim and Thummim seer stones... Its to the point even you seem confused, most like due to the fact you depend to much on second and third hand accounts. The actual witnesses make your claims basically untrue, doubtful and debatable.
Focus ralf...the church teaches the seer stone, and the interpreters, were used interchangeable, and both were called the Urim and Thummim.

Ralf read this...the church is not confused here.

..."Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters... ."
 
Focus ralf...the church teaches the seer stone, and the interpreters, were used interchangeable, and both were called the Urim and Thummim.

Ralf read this...the church is not confused here.

..."Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters... ."
D&C 3
12 And when thou deliveredst up that which God had given thee sight and power to translate, thou deliveredst up that which was sacred into the hands of a wicked man,

13 Who has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God, and has depended upon his own judgment and boasted in his own wisdom.

No Markk, God only mentions that which was given by God to see and have the power to translate. Given what, The Urim and Thummim or seer stones.... not some magic rock which God never mentions... nor did he take the stones away from JS when he took everything else, the plates the Urim and Thummin etc. And when he asked the witnesses to come and see the plates, the sword, the compass the seer stones, he did not show them some bronwn magic rock... common sense Markk, use it.
 
D&C 3
12 And when thou deliveredst up that which God had given thee sight and power to translate, thou deliveredst up that which was sacred into the hands of a wicked man,

13 Who has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God, and has depended upon his own judgment and boasted in his own wisdom.

No Markk, God only mentions that which was given by God to see and have the power to translate. Given what, The Urim and Thummim or seer stones.... not some magic rock which God never mentions... nor did he take the stones away from JS when he took everything else, the plates the Urim and Thummin etc. And when he asked the witnesses to come and see the plates, the sword, the compass the seer stones, he did not show them some bronwn magic rock... common sense Markk, use it.
The LDS church teaches God speaks through the church and prophets, and the church teaches that Joseph translated the BoM via either the interpreters or a seer stone. You are the only one saying a magic rock. That is not what the church teaches. Sorry, but that is the facts you are having an issue with.
 
The LDS church teaches God speaks through the church and prophets, and the church teaches that Joseph translated the BoM via either the interpreters or a seer stone. You are the only one saying a magic rock. That is not what the church teaches. Sorry, but that is the facts you are having an issue with.

Regardless of the perspective (believing or non-believing) from which we tell the story of the translation, the essential fact of the translation is unchanged​

The conclusion that Joseph used a "magical" or "occult" stone to assist in the translation of the Book of Mormon is entirely dependent upon one's own preconception that the use of such an instrument would not be acceptable by God. Believers, on the other hand, ought not to take issue with a distinction between one set of seer stones versus another. As Brant Gardner notes: "Regardless of the perspective from which we tell the story, the essential fact of the translation is unchanged. How was the Book of Mormon translated? As Joseph continually insisted, the only real answer, from any perspective, is that it was translated by the gift and power of God."
Brant A. Gardner, Why Did He Translate With a Rock in His Hat?


So Markk I would place you in the category of the preconception he used a magic or occult seer stone... as for me, well since I don't have to worry about the truth of the BOM as being a traslation of the Gold Plates, it somehow makes it so much easier for me, versus you have to continue to deny everything.... you put your faith in Bushman, Arrington, Mormonism Unveiled, David Whitmer and yet these same individuals except for Mormonism Unveiled, are members of the Church and held high positions or as witnesses.... you are having a difficult time trying to find any truth I think!
 
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