Eternal Life : a Harvest Reaped by Doers of Good

Daniel.

Member
Addressed. Now answer what they believed?

When later? Please affirm that those who believed, rejected Him a minute later. What belief did they hold that they rejected?

To which Father did Jesus say they belonged?
Be consistent.

Answered.
Can you rebut or only claim, "another one bites the dust"
1. As Jesus was speaking, they believed. Obviously they believed His Word. No one can believe unless they are "of the truth".

2a. The very same ones who believed were the ones He maintained that conversation with
John 8
30As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
31So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33They...
2b. It doesn't matter what they believed. What matters is THAT they believed. To qualify to believe you must be "of the truth".

3. Again, the Calvinist error is thinking heart conditions/sonship are immutable. I address that error here.
 

MMDAN

Active member
Galatians 6
6Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Romans 2
6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life on earth is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.

Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.
 

MMDAN

Active member
1. As Jesus was speaking, they believed. Obviously they believed His Word. No one can believe unless they are "of the truth".

2a. The very same ones who believed were the ones He maintained that conversation with
John 8
30As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
31So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33They...
2b. It doesn't matter what they believed. What matters is THAT they believed. To qualify to believe you must be "of the truth".

3. Again, the Calvinist error is thinking heart conditions/sonship are immutable. I address that error here.
The content of what they believed matters. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

So we can see at best, these Jews believed Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him unto salvation" and become children of God. (John 1:12; 3:18) Some people may actually start out believing in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later after finding out through further words or actions that the politician does not line up with their original expectations.
 

Daniel.

Member
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life on earth is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.

Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.
Oops! Sorry that's not what that verse says. Speaking to BELIEVERS, he says GOOD DEEDS are the seed they must sow if they wish to reap eternal life from the Spirit "in due time if we do not give up", not "believe in Jesus". He already knows they believe. Oops! I know, "do good works" and "believe in Jesus" look so similar on paper they can easily be mixed up. Don't you worry though I clarified that for you.

Nope, the "saved" weren't conducting themselves in a holy manner in 1 Corinthians. Jesus also had a lot to rebuke the Churches about in Rv 2 and 3. James had a lot of rebuking to do too. Paul constantly rebuked, and charged others to rebuke. Pray tell : in your world where Christians never sin... why would they ever need to be rebuked? For doing good? Oops!

"Acktchually", "doing good" is precisely what is put forth as the means of procuring eternal life ON THAT DAY : "God will repay every man according to his deeds", "the doer of the Law will be justified... when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ Jesus." Paul then points to believing Gentiles (who their "Christian" Jewish counterparts consider to be at a disadvantage for not having the Old Covenant Law, but who Paul says have the New, Covenant Spirit of Grace writing the Law in their hearts) as "doers of the Law" (vv13, 14, 26, 27).
Now, to this point, we see that if a Christian sins, he is "condemned" for it (Ro 14:23). That's the opposite of justification. How does that happen? To what end? Again if the Christian persists in living after the flesh he will die and not live (Ro 2:6,7, 8:12,13). This wraps back to Ro 2 where he is warning the Christian Jews who have begun to disobey the truth (see this same verbiage used to describe the believing Gentiles in the Galatian Church (Gal 5:7) when they deserted God by going away from the true Gospel (Gal 1:6) to the false Gospel of "Circumcision" (Gal 5:11) or being "under Law" (Gal 4:21)) and live sinfully that they will not inherit life living that way. Again, life is a harvest reaped by doers of good ONLY.

Paul is rebuking the Jews in the Roman Church who look down their noses at their Gentile counterparts--they do not understand the Gospel and so are living as if "under Law" not availing themselves of Grace (not living as if "under Grace")--"you call yourself a Jew and think you're a guide to the blind, a teacher of the foolish"--and so he has to argue to explain that they are not "under Law" in 6:14 and then the rejoinder in 7:1-6 to get them to stop living as those "under Law". To get them out of the deception they are "under Law" so they can live free "under Grace".
What "you" (Ro 2:17)? He doesn't write theologically heavy epistles to unbelievers; he writes those to Churches where there are believers--and where those believers, but especially believing Jews (Titus 1:10), err and think they are to live the Christian life via the Law not Grace.
 
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Daniel.

Member
The content of what they believed matters. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

So we can see at best, these Jews believed Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him unto salvation" and become children of God. (John 1:12; 3:18) Some people may actually start out believing in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later after finding out through further words or actions that the politician does not line up with their original expectations.
Sorry that's not the subject here. Let's keep things orderly and keep that discussion over on that thread.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
2b. It doesn't matter what they believed.
And right here is your problem.
You know that many agnostics and even atheists believe Jesus and believe in some of the things He taught. They hear/read His words and think it good not to hurt and to forgive etc. and they believe that it is good not to hurt and to forgive etc.

According to your theology, agnostics and even atheists are therefore saved, because they believe but are not saved at the same time
It is of course a ridiculous position that you hold.
 

Daniel.

Member
And right here is your problem.
You know that many agnostics and even atheists believe Jesus and believe in some of the things He taught. They hear/read His words and think it good not to hurt and to forgive etc. and they believe that it is good not to hurt and to forgive etc.

According to your theology, agnostics and even atheists are therefore saved, because they believe but are not saved at the same time
It is of course a ridiculous position that you hold.
That is not the subject here.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
That is not the subject here.
The subject is that you believe anyone who hears some words of Jesus and believes Him, are saved and then fall away a minute later.

I have no problem with your false believe. It does not impact OSAS or perseverance of the Saints at all.

Those you claim as believers, did believe for a minute (y)
 

Daniel.

Member
The subject is that you believe anyone who hears some words of Jesus and believes Him, are saved and then fall away a minute later.

I have no problem with your false believe. It does not impact OSAS or perseverance of the Saints at all.

Those you claim as believers, did believe for a minute (y)
Nope. Read the OP then tell me where you went wrong.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Galatians 6
6Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

So you disagree with Galatians 6:6-10?
That's not what he said. CARM requires you to post an actual link so this doesn't happen. You can't misrepresent others here.
 

Daniel.

Member
That's not what he said. CARM requires you to post an actual link so this doesn't happen. You can't misrepresent others here.
1. People misrepresent me here all of the time. I'll make sure to start reporting them.

2. It looks like am asking a question there, because that is what is being inferred, and because I KNOW he is going to deny what he is seemingly unwittingly inferring.
 

Daniel.

Member
That's not what he said. CARM requires you to post an actual link so this doesn't happen. You can't misrepresent others here.
I went and double-checked what he said, and, yes, that was EXACTLY what he was inferring.

You need to make sure you know what you're talking about before you say stuff.

I asked him "Which of the following would you disagree with?" he responded "2. Good deeds are the seeds you have to sow to reap the harvest of eternal life." So my response was "So you disagree with Galatians 6:6-10?" because that passage EXPLICITLY teaches EXACTLY THAT : eternal life is a harvest that only doers of good will reap "in due time" if they keep on doing good.
 

Daniel.

Member
That's not what he said. CARM requires you to post an actual link so this doesn't happen. You can't misrepresent others here.
1. People misrepresent me here all of the time. I'll make sure to start reporting them.

2. It looks like am asking a question there, because that is what is being inferred, and because I KNOW he is going to deny what he is seemingly unwittingly inferring.
I went and double-checked what he said, and, yes, that was EXACTLY what he was inferring.

You need to make sure you know what you're talking about before you say stuff.

I asked him "Which of the following would you disagree with?" he responded "2. Good deeds are the seeds you have to sow to reap the harvest of eternal life." So my response was "So you disagree with Galatians 6:6-10?" because that passage EXPLICITLY teaches EXACTLY THAT : eternal life is a harvest that only doers of good will reap "in due time" if they keep on doing good.


My question was ENTIRELY appropriate:
So you accept that Scripture teaches that eternal life is a harvest reaped by doers of good (eg, all the Scriptures provided in the OP)?
Not all good is good. Only Divine good counts. Divine Good is done by means of the filling of the Spirit, while either thinking soundly with truth. Or, thinking soundly as the result the benefits of knowing and accepting truth (transformation).
Which of the following would you disagree with ?
1. Eternal life is a harvest which Christians can reap.
2. The "seed" Christians must sow in order to have a harvest of eternal life they can reap is good deeds.
3. God will repay each according to their deeds : doers of good will be repaid with eternal life, evildoers will be tortured.
2. The "seed" Christians must sow in order to have a harvest of eternal life they can reap is good deeds.

You should find yourself (without even knowing it) doing good deeds. You do not do them as a means to reap rewards. Any religious prig can do good works. Its when you discover you did not even know you are doing one is what sheds light on your spiritual development.

When you find revealed to yourself that you were doing good deeds - automatically from a transformed nature - what you will know will indicate you will reap eternal life.

The one time you may consciously will to do a good deed is when a demand for a deed was brought your way for testing. Otherwise, doing good deeds should come from your new nature as like a bird flies south for the winter. We develop spiritual instincts that cause god deeds to be an unconscious act. That can only come from a transformed soul enabled by grace and stabilized by truth.
So you do or don't believe eternal life is ultimately a harvest reaped only by doers of good deeds (in the words of Romans 2, a payment for doing good deeds)?
Galatians 6
6Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

So you disagree with Galatians 6:6-10?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Nope. Read the OP then tell me where you went wrong.
No need to.

Your claim is that those who you say believe or who are in the faith are doers of good. Those in John 8 as per the other thread.

That heresy is not problematic.
 

Daniel.

Member
No need to.

Your claim is that those who you say believe or who are in the faith are doers of good. Those in John 8 as per the other thread.

That heresy is not problematic.
Read the OP. This has nothing to do with John 8.

If you DENY that those who are in the faith must also be doers of good THAT is a heresy.
If you do not fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law Ro 8:4 you are NOT remaining in faith Ro 2:14,26,27, 3:31, 13:8-10.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Read the OP. This has nothing to do with John 8.

If you DENY that those who are in the faith must also be doers of good THAT is a heresy.
If you do not fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law Ro 8:4 you are NOT remaining in faith Ro 2:14,26,27, 3:31, 13:8-10.
You think I deny that the Spirit leads us to do the good works God had prepared for us to walk in beforehand?
You would be wrong.

If you think I deny that we can do anything good without the leading of the HS, then you would be correct.

This ties in with your heresy as per John 8
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member

Sorry that's not the subject here. Let's keep things orderly and keep that discussion over on that thread.

You are reaping what you have sown. SIX divisive threads on the same topic is what you have sown. Now you are reaping the product of your intentional words.

As you know I archive certain posts because, as is often the case, people forget what they have said.
 
G

guest1

Guest
You are reaping what you have sown. SIX divisive threads on the same topic is what you have sown. Now you are reaping the product of your intentional words.

As you know I archive certain posts because, as is often the case, people forget what they have said.
yes there are certain characteristics of a troll and they are easy to spot.
 
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