Eternal life......when?

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
On another thread I asked this simple question to a staunch Calvinists....and typically he evaded and did not answer my simple question. So I open the question to any and all Calvinists........

When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?

This is a divisive thread, posted to incite division.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
On another thread I asked this simple question to a staunch Calvinists....and typically he evaded and did not answer my simple question. So I open the question to any and all Calvinists........

When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?

It's a very simple answer, and I've answered it MANY times.
It's sad that you have to try to harass people by trying to force them into a conversation, and then make an entire thread simply to attack them.... How "Christian" of you.... NOT.

AFTER the Holy Spirit (1) regenerates a person, He (2) gives the person faith, and THEN (3) they have eternal life.

That's the order:
(1) regeneration;
(2) faith;
(3) eternal life.

I've also presented this order in this format, MANY times:

regeneration --> faith --> eternal life

The answer is not going to change, simply because you don't like it.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
It's a very simple answer, and I've answered it MANY times.
It's sad that you have to try to harass people by trying to force them into a conversation, and then make an entire thread simply to attack them.... How "Christian" of you.... NOT.

AFTER the Holy Spirit (1) regenerates a person, He (2) gives the person faith, and THEN (3) they have eternal life.

That's the order:
(1) regeneration;
(2) faith;
(3) eternal life.

I've also presented this order in this format, MANY times:

regeneration --> faith --> eternal life

The answer is not going to change, simply because you don't like it.
Seeing you insert "faith" before eternal life. Please define the faith you have inserted in the process. Ok? 'Cause I have no clue what your "faith" is and how your "faith" works in your process.

For example....say the Holy Spirit regenerates a man......does the man immediately repent? I mean, within seconds of the sovereign act of regeneration by the Father of spirits, does the individual repent and convert? Can time pass between the sovereign act of regeneration by the Father of spirits and repentance and conversion....say a day? A week? Month? Year? Decades? Lifetime?
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
So you deny John 3:16 and Eph. 2:8?
Good to know....



Nope.
If you don't know what "faith" is, then you certainly aren't going to accept any answer I give you.
So please stop harassing me.



I agree.



What part of "take that big ugly chip off your shoulder and stop harassing me", do you not understand?
So you are not going to answer my simple questions??? Or can't answer my questions???

By the way......I deny NO scripture and that is the reason my theology has no contradictions with the word of God and the teachings of Jesus....unlike Calvinism.

And seeing you are evading and going of topic......try reading the OP again and respond appropriately. OK?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So you are not going to answer my simple questions???

I've told you a hundred times I'm not going to answer questions asked by abrasive people who are only going to tell me I'm "wrong" (in their errant opinion) and are simply going to insult me.

And if you can't understand that, then it's no wonder you can't understand Scripture.
Now kindly stop harassing me, okay? All you're doing when you harass me is demonstrate that you don't know my Lord Jesus Christ.

By the way......I deny NO scripture and that is the reason my theology has no contradictions....unlike Calvinism.

You have every right to your errant opinion.
Now please stop harassing me.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
I've told you a hundred times I'm not going to answer questions asked by abrasive people who are only going to tell me I'm "wrong" (in their errant opinion) and are simply going to insult me.

And if you can't understand that, then it's no wonder you can't understand Scripture.
Now kindly stop harassing me, okay? All you're doing when you harass me is demonstrate that you don't know my Lord Jesus Christ.



You have every right to your errant opinion.
Now please stop harassing me.
Edit per mod. Personal attack by implication.

And....hopefully some other Calvinists can do what you won't do. We will see.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Hey....do you realize that if you don't respond to any of my post the supposed "harassing" would cease?

Sorry, you don't get to boss me around.
You don't get to tell me what to do.
You don't get to force me to choose between two arbitrary choices of "answer ALL of my questions, even when I insult you at every turn", or else, "don't post at all".

I can (and will) post when I want, what I want, to whom I want.

Oh, and no court of law or person with a tiny bit of common sense would conclude I am harassing you.

I have told you over a hundred times that I have no interest in answering your "questions'.
Yet you continue to try to force me into a discussion with you.
That is called "harassment".
It is also called "unChristian".

Actually you remind me of my children when they were pre teen or teenagers when I insisted they account for their words or actions (that they did not want to admit to) would , likewise accuse me of harassing them....."Stop it dad.......(sigh)......leave me alone......(whine).

Thank you for insulting me further.
And thank you for justifying my decision of why I refuse to engage with you.

Newsflash: You are NOT my "father".
You don't get to boss me around.
And you CERTAINLY don't have any moral superiority over me, after all the harassing you are constantly doing.

And....hopefully some other Calvinists can do what you won't do. We will see.

Yes, maybe other Calvinists will be willing to put up with your abuse and your insults.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Sorry, you don't get to boss me around.
You don't get to tell me what to do.
You don't get to force me to choose between two arbitrary choices of "answer ALL of my questions, even when I insult you at every turn", or else, "don't post at all".

I can (and will) post when I want, what I want, to whom I want.



I have told you over a hundred times that I have no interest in answering your "questions'.
Yet you continue to try to force me into a discussion with you.
That is called "harassment".
It is also called "unChristian".



Thank you for insulting me further.
And thank you for justifying my decision of why I refuse to engage with you.

Newsflash: You are NOT my "father".
You don't get to boss me around.
And you CERTAINLY don't have any moral superiority over me, after all the harassing you are constantly doing.



Yes, maybe other Calvinists will be willing to put up with your abuse and your insults.
You are one funny guy.

Perhaps there is a Calvinist more able to respond to the OP?
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Surely there is a Calvinist that can answer my question?

It is not a trick question. What does your doctrine say?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?
I am no Calvinist, so I have the pleasure of giving you the non-Calvinist, biblical answer to that question!

(1) According to the Bible, nobody already “has eternal life” in this world. Eternal life, by definition, is something that can only be had in the next life, not in this life:


Mark 10:

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 18:

30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

1 John 2:

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


“Eternal life” by definition is something that is “eternal,” and can only be had in the eternities to come, not in this life, which is temporal and temporary, not “eternal”. Another biblical definition of “eternal life” is the life that is with God, and in the presence of God, which is only possible in the next life, not in this life:

John 17:

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 14:

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


(2) And nobody has “eternal life” (in the world to come) untill they have endured to the end in this life:

Matthew 10:

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

John 6:

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


And to “endure to the end” means to remain true to the faith, true to the gospel, to the end of one’s life. It means not spostatizing, or denying the faith, or turning away from the gospel due to persecution, or temptation, or transgression, or deceitfulness of riches etc.

(3) In this life one has only the promise of salvation and eternal life (1 John 2:25), and also the assurance of it through faith in Jesus Christ, and a determination to serve and obey him, and remain faithful to the end of one’s life. But eternal life itself, by definition, is something that can only be had in the next life, not in this life. So this idea of “instant salvation” is a figment of the Evangelical imagination. There is no such thing. It is derived from the false theology of Calvinism, and is not biblical. Expressions such as found in
John 5:24; 1 John 3:14; 1 John 5:11; are figurative expressions, suggesting the promise and assurance of eternal life that believers have in God, provided that they remain faithful to the end. It doesn't mean that they are already “saved,” or that it is impossible for them to apostatize and be damned at a later stage, if they choose to go that way. Nobody is “saved” untill they have “endured to the end” in this life.

(4) Faith precedes regeneration. Regeneration is the result of, the by-product of, faith, not the other way. The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the word of God, not by “regeneration”:


Romans 10:

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


It doesn’t say, “faith comes by regeneration,” which is a different thing entirely. When the gospel is preached by those sent from God, it is done by the power of the Holy Ghost; and the Holy Ghost then bears witness to the hearts of those that hear that the words spoken are true, and came from God. The person then has the choice to either receive the witness, or to harden his heart against it (
Heb. 3:15; 4:7). If he chooses to harden his heart, then nothing further happens, and the person remains in his hardened, blinded, and unregenerate state. If, however, he chooses to receive the witness and not harden his heart, then faith is generated, which leads to repentance and acceptance of the gospel, followed by a remission of sins in baptism (Luke 3:3; Acts 2:38; 22:16), then followed by the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17-19, 9:17; 19:6; 21:11); and “regeneration” follows after that. Then the person has the promised assurance of eternal life on condition that he remains faithful to the gospel to the end of his life, or “endures to the end,” which is another way of saying the same thing. That is the correct ordo salutis described in the Bible—which is not the same as the Calvinistic one.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
On another thread I asked this simple question to a staunch Calvinists....and typically he evaded and did not answer my simple question. So I open the question to any and all Calvinists........

When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?

This is a divisive thread, posted to incite division.
Yes, when the elect are regenerated they posses eternal life, spiritual life, experientially however they have it legally before they are regenerated due to their election in Christ before the foundation of the world.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
On another thread I asked this simple question to a staunch Calvinists....and typically he evaded and did not answer my simple question. So I open the question to any and all Calvinists........

When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?

This is a divisive thread, posted to incite division.
Temporally speaking, Yes; Logically speaking, No. Temporally, these things happen at the same Time; but Logically, we possess Eternal Life at Justification through Faith Alone...

Compatibalism...
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Yes, when the elect are regenerated they posses eternal life, spiritual life, experientially however they have it legally before they are regenerated due to their election in Christ before the foundation of the world.
I pretty much agree with your post. where is "faith" coming into the equation and what does "faith" accomplish if one already possesses eternal life? Do you consider yourself a Calvinist? I only ask to have a better understanding of where you may be coming from......and I don't track all the posters here as to their theology.

As for me and my theology.......The Father wrote the names of all His future children in the Book of Life; written before the foundation of the world.. These are the elect, the children of promise.
In the appointed time God sovereignly regenerates said child of promise and makes him/her into a spiritually alive child of the Living God. These , who have been "born from above" are now God's children and will always be God's children and will live in the forever with God.......have eternal life.

Anything you disagree with?
 
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Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Temporally speaking, Yes; Logically speaking, No. Temporally, these things happen at the same Time; but Logically, we possess Eternal Life at Justification through Faith Alone...

Compatibalism...
Not sure what you mean by "temporally speaking"? Seems if one HAS eternal life......they have it, period. Also, not sure what you are saying "we possess eternal life at justification through faith alone? Where is "regeneration" in that equation?

And for the life of me I don't know why a moderator wrote this thread is meant to be devisive and incite division? I think we should discuss and reason the sequence of events in the salvation of God's children.....don't you?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
On another thread I asked this simple question to a staunch Calvinists....and typically he evaded and did not answer my simple question. So I open the question to any and all Calvinists........

When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?
Not a Calvinist, but when we are saved we possess eternal life right then. Eternal life, as I understand it, is life unseparated from God by sin (John 17:3). The Bible speaks of that kind of life as something we have in the present tense (after the cross) - John 3:16; 6:54; 10:28; Romans 6:23; 1 John 5:11-13). Those passages that speak of eternal life "in the world to come" are referencing the age that followed the cross as all of them are quotes from Jesus pre-cross. The word there translated "world" in the KJV is aionos and is a chronological term.

That doesn't mean there is never a place in scripture where eternal life is spoken of in a future sense. Certainly some will have eternal life after time ceases, so in that sense it is yet future, but to have it after time ends, you have to have it given to you while you yet live physically.

In Truth and Love.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Not a Calvinist, but when we are saved we possess eternal life right then. Eternal life, as I understand it, is life unseparated from God by sin (John 17:3). The Bible speaks of that kind of life as something we have in the present tense (after the cross) - John 3:16; 6:54; 10:28; Romans 6:23; 1 John 5:11-13). Those passages that speak of eternal life "in the world to come" are referencing the age that followed the cross as all of them are quotes from Jesus pre-cross. The word there translated "world" in the KJV is aionos and is a chronological term.

That doesn't mean there is never a place in scripture where eternal life is spoken of in a future sense. Certainly some will have eternal life after time ceases, so in that sense it is yet future, but to have it after time ends, you have to have it given to you while you yet live physically.

In Truth and Love.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Where does "regeneration" play in your equation? That is what the OP inquired about. I don't know your definition of "saved".....as in "when we are saved we possess eternal life right then." This may seem like an elementary question but folks have been arguing over the process for years/centuries.

But the fact that you are not a Calvinist this discussion might be for another thread.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Where does "regeneration" play in your equation? That is what the OP inquired about. I don't know your definition of "saved".....as in "when we are saved we possess eternal life right then." This may seem like an elementary question but folks have been arguing over the process for years/centuries.
To me, saved, regenerated, justified, cleansed, sanctified, redeemed, etc. are all different words to describe the same event so they happen at one point. The big disagreement from most will be when I believe this happens, which is when a person is immersed in water into Christ to wash away their sins. I don't wish to derail your thread, though, so I won't argue in support of this premise here. I just wanted to answer your question.

Eternal life is one of those many blessings found in Christ Jesus. So for us to be given it, we first have to be in Christ Jesus. Off topic, take it to a different forums.
 
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Oldsaint24

Well-known member
To me, saved, regenerated, justified, cleansed, sanctified, redeemed, etc. are all different words to describe the same event so they happen at one point. The big disagreement from most will be when I believe this happens, which is when a person is immersed in water into Christ to wash away their sins. I don't wish to derail your thread, though, so I won't argue in support of this premise here. I just wanted to answer your question.

Eternal life is one of those many blessings found in Christ Jesus. So for us to be given it, we first have to be in Christ Jesus. The Bible only ever talks about one way into Christ, and that is by water immersion. (Romans 6).
Yes we could easily go off topic, but I will continue for a bit. Concerning regeneration/being born from above (hope you agree with the two being the same?) When Nicodemus asked Jesus about being born a second time , Jesus responded, "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Now to me it says we have NOTHING to do with being born from above (regeneration), it is a totally sovereign act of God. Do you disagree?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Yes we could easily go off topic, but I will continue for a bit. Concerning regeneration/being born from above (hope you agree with the two being the same?) When Nicodemus asked Jesus about being born a second time , Jesus responded, "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Now to me it says we have NOTHING to do with being born from above (regeneration), it is a totally sovereign act of God. Do you disagree?
I do. I believe the meaning is as simple as not being able to see the actual transformation of a spiritual entity. We only see the physical realm. That doesn't mean the physical realm is not involved, only that it is the spiritual self not the physical self that is undergoing the change.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Hold on a second......previously you stated regeneration happens "when a person is immersed in water....".
Doesn't that conflict with "who is born , not of the will of man....." John 1:13
Doesn't your immersion happen because of the will of man?
I don't believe so. Let me explain what I understand "will of man" and "will of God" to mean. When someone will's something, that is a intent or desire for something to happen. That doesn't necessarily mean what they will actually happens, but that's the outcome they are aiming for. In term's of what God wills, that is His commands, His pattern for our lives. God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." We might also talk about the "will and testament" of Christ, which we call the New Testament. It is Christ's will, His requirement, His command that we live according to what He taught.

The will of man, on the other hand, is the things that man desires, the things that we devise and intend to do. I give Naaman as an example here. When told to go wash in the Jordan River 7 times (God's will), he responded thusly:

"Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage." (2 Kings 5:11-12)

Naaman was angry because God's will did not match up to Naaman's will.

Off Topic in this forum. Infractions may follow.
 
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