Eternal life......when?

Sethproton

Well-known member
What you had said is irrational and doesn’t make sense. You are talking about something that doesn’t or cannot exist. It is a logical absurdity and impossibility, something made out of a fanciful imagination. So the only logical alternative is to talk about what I said rather than what I said.
Since you never addressed a single word in my post, I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Since you never addressed a single word in my post, I have no idea what you are talking about.
What you had said is a play on words. This is what you said:
Do you accept that Christ indwells believers?
By his spirit, yes. That is a metaphor, a figure of speech. It doesn’t mean that he literally and physically dwells in anyone.
And that He Himself is eternal life?
A meaningless statement. You are stretching a figure of speech beyond reasonable limits. To have eternal life is to live in the presence of God the Father and the Son eternally in the heavens (John 17:3), and is to be had in the next life, not this life (Matt. 25:46; Mark 10:17, 30; John 4:36; 12:25; 1 Tim. 6:19; Titus 3:7; 1 John 2:25)
Therefore an indwelt believer has eternal life the moment they receive Christ.
Stretching a metaphor beyond reasonable limits. Not true.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
What you had said is a play on words. This is what you said:

By his spirit, yes. That is a metaphor, a figure of speech. It doesn’t mean that he literally and physically dwells in anyone.

A meaningless statement. You are stretching a figure of speech beyond reasonable limits. To have eternal life is to live in the presence of God the Father and the Son eternally in the heavens (
John 17:3), and is to be had in the next life, not this life (Matt. 25:46; Mark 10:17, 30; John 4:36; 12:25; 1 Tim. 6:19; Titus 3:7; 1 John 2:25)

Stretching a metaphor beyond reasonable limits. Not true.
Ok, now i see your point. Thanks.
very difficult to argue against your position, though I disagree.
When you say that something is meant only as a metaphor, but I see it as a literal truth, it is tricky to prove either way.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Twilite state? That is a new one for me.
So what did the Holy Spirit do to create your "twilite state"? Is your previously totally deprave man that is now in his twilite state still spiritually dead?
(chuckle) he, being "Regenerated" is then supposedly "Spiritually Alive" - but ONLY to the point that he can appreciate, or be aware of God. So in that state he's now no longer "totally" depraved, but not Born Again of the Spirit - yet.

SO, the "ELECT" person (if he wasn't "ELECT" he wouldn't have been "Regenerated" to begin with), now Regenerated, WILL progress to the point of being "Born Again" ("I" says he has no choice), and He will subsequently PERSEVERE (OSAS), as a Christian, for the rest of his life ("P").
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
On another thread I asked this simple question to a staunch Calvinists....and typically he evaded and did not answer my simple question. So I open the question to any and all Calvinists........

When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?

This is a divisive thread, posted to incite division.

If eternal life is a present condition of the elect, why is eternal life later given to them?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
What you had said is a play on words. This is what you said:

By his spirit, yes. That is a metaphor, a figure of speech. It doesn’t mean that he literally and physically dwells in anyone.

A meaningless statement. You are stretching a figure of speech beyond reasonable limits. To have eternal life is to live in the presence of God the Father and the Son eternally in the heavens (
John 17:3), and is to be had in the next life, not this life (Matt. 25:46; Mark 10:17, 30; John 4:36; 12:25; 1 Tim. 6:19; Titus 3:7; 1 John 2:25)

Stretching a metaphor beyond reasonable limits. Not true.
I thought i would make a second response. If you think it is stretching the metaphor of Christ being the life, what do you think it literally means while we are on earth?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I thought i would make a second response. If you think it is stretching the metaphor of Christ being the life, what do you think it literally means while we are on earth?
That expression, of Jesus being “life,” is found in several scriptures, the following probably being the highlights:

John 1:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
• • •
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 6:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 8:

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


In addition to these there are several passages, mainly from Paul, which talk about Jesus being “in us”. None of these, however, can be interpreted to mean that it is impossible for those blessed in this way to later apostatize, fall away, and be damned. There are several scriptures that clearly state that that is possible:

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


And if it is possible for them to fall away, then they cannot be having eternal life in this life, because by definition eternal life is eternal and cannot be lost. If you can lose it, then you don’t have it, because if you had it, by definition you wouldn’t be able to lose it.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
If eternal life is a present condition of the elect, why is eternal life later given to them?
What "eternal life" is later given?

I do contend that once an unregenerate child of man is regenerated to (spiritual) life by the Holy Spirit , he/she possesses eternal life.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That expression, of Jesus being “life,” is found in several scriptures, the following probably being the highlights:

John 1:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
• • •
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 6:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 8:

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


In addition to these there are several passages, mainly from Paul, which talk about Jesus being “in us”. None of these, however, can be interpreted to mean that it is impossible for those blessed in this way to later apostatize, fall away, and be damned. There are several scriptures that clearly state that that is possible:

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


And if it is possible for them to fall away, then they cannot be having eternal life in this life, because by definition eternal life is eternal and cannot be lost. If you can lose it, then you don’t have it, because if you had it, by definition you wouldn’t be able to lose it.
Again, you keep changing the topic to whether it can be lost. I have not spoken about that at all, so why do you keep going there.
Plus I don't see that you answered my question directly. What is the literal truth behind calling Jesus the life. Instead of a page of scripture, please just state your idea in one sentence.
 

e v e

Well-known member
When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?
when His 144k receive from God their resurrected bodies at the Change ... that will be their being saved... and restored imperishable being.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
when His 144k receive from God their resurrected bodies at the Change ... that will be their being saved... and restored imperishable being.
But when the Holy Spirit quickens/regenerates the spiritually dead child of man into a spiritually alive child of God......does the child of God now possess eternal life?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Again, you keep changing the topic to whether it can be lost. I have not spoken about that at all, so why do you keep going there.
Because it is relevant (vital) to the theology being discussed. Salvation and eternal life that can be lost is neither salvation nor eternal life by definition. Period. End of story. The best that one can have in this life is the assurance of salvation and eternal life in the world to come, which is promised by Jesus Christ, provided that one remains faithful to the gospel to the end of one’s life.
Plus I don't see that you answered my question directly. What is the literal truth behind calling Jesus the life.
According to the verses I had quoted, there are two meanings associated with that teaching. According to John 1:4-5, 9-10, Jesus is light and life to everyone in the world without exception. All mankind, without exception, derive their life and light from him. That is the meaning in John 1. That is the general meaning. There is also a more limited, specific meaning, as taught in John 6:51; 8:12; which refer specifically to salvation and eternal life, which is give only to those who believe and repent of their sins in this life. This is to be had only in the next life, not in this life. In this life one can have the assurance of salvation and eternal life in the world to come, through faith in Jesus Christ, and repentance of one’s sins, and remaining true to the gospel to the end of one’s life. But the actual possession of eternal life is something that can only be had in the next life, not in this life. The assurance of eternal life in this world is nearly as good as the possession of it in the next life, because it is guaranteed to those who remain faithful to the end. That is what those scriptures mean which seem to suggest that those who believe in Jesus Christ already have eternal life. It is a metaphorical expressions, a figure of speech, implying the assurance of salvation they have, provided that they remain faithful to the end. The choice to do so, however, is entirely theirs.
Instead of a page of scripture, please just state your idea in one sentence.
LOL! My doctrine is derived from, and supported by scripture. If you don’t like the scripture, then we have nothing more left to talk about.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Because it is relevant (vital) to the theology being discussed. Salvation and eternal life that can be lost is neither salvation nor eternal life by definition. Period. End of story. The best that one can have in this life is the assurance of salvation and eternal life in the world to come, which is promised by Jesus Christ, provided that one remains faithful to the gospel to the end of one’s life.

According to the verses I had quoted, there are two meanings associated with that teaching. According to John 1:4-5, 9-10, Jesus is light and life to everyone in the world without exception. All mankind, without exception, derive their life and light from him. That is the meaning in John 1. That is the general meaning. There is also a more limited, specific meaning, as taught in John 6:51; 8:12; which refer specifically to salvation and eternal life, which is give only to those who believe and repent of their sins in this life. This is to be had only in the next life, not in this life. In this life one can have the assurance of salvation and eternal life in the world to come, through faith in Jesus Christ, and repentance of one’s sins, and remaining true to the gospel to the end of one’s life. But the actual possession of eternal life is something that can only be had in the next life, not in this life. The assurance of eternal life in this world is nearly as good as the possession of it in the next life, because it is guaranteed to those who remain faithful to the end. That is what those scriptures mean which seem to suggest that those who believe in Jesus Christ already have eternal life. It is a metaphorical expressions, a figure of speech, implying the assurance of salvation they have, provided that they remain faithful to the end. The choice to do so, however, is entirely theirs.

LOL! My doctrine is derived from, and supported by scripture. If you don’t like the scripture, then we have nothing more left to talk about.
Again, you are not responding to me, but to someone else's ideas,
I asked for a simple one sentence statement of your position.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Again, you are not responding to me, but to someone else's ideas,
I asked for a simple one sentence statement of your position.
LOL! Okay, restate your question one more time, clearly and succinctly, and I will do my best to give it a short, succinct reply.
 

armylngst

Active member
I pretty much agree with your post. where is "faith" coming into the equation and what does "faith" accomplish if one already possesses eternal life? Do you consider yourself a Calvinist? I only ask to have a better understanding of where you may be coming from......and I don't track all the posters here as to their theology.

As for me and my theology.......The Father wrote the names of all His future children in the Book of Life; written before the foundation of the world.. These are the elect, the children of promise.
In the appointed time God sovereignly regenerates said child of promise and makes him/her into a spiritually alive child of the Living God. These , who have been "born from above" are now God's children and will always be God's children and will live in the forever with God.......have eternal life.

Anything you disagree with?
Read Ephesians 1. While the elect have been predestined to adoption through Jesus Christ, it is not accounted to them until salvation. "13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory." So while God knows who He has predestined to adoption, the inheritance is not accounted to them until they are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. At that point, the believer can know that eternal life is theirs, as the Holy Spirit is the guarantee, the down payment, God Himself has promised the believer, of the inheritance God has set aside for them. Hopefully that is understandable.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You claim Christ being life in us is metaphoric. What literal idea is it a metaphor for?
You need to provide scripture reference for that before it can be discussed. What scripture(s) were you referring to specifically that speak of Jesus being “life in us”? Context is required before it can be properly discussed.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You need to provide scripture reference for that before it can be discussed. What scripture(s) were you referring to specifically that speak of Jesus being “life in us”? Context is required before it can be properly discussed.
How about Galatians 2:20 ...Christ lives in me...
 

zerinus

Well-known member
How about Galatians 2:20 ...Christ lives in me...
Okay, here is the full quote in context:

Galatians 2:

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


I see quite a lot of figures of speech and metaphorical language there. For example, what does he mean when he says, “I am crucified with Christ”? Obviously it is not meant to be taken literally. I take that to mean that he lives a life of sacrifice to God. Then in the continuation he adds, “nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me,” which is another obvious metaphor and figure of speech, for which he provides the explanation as follows: “and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God.” In other words, what he means by “Christ liveth in me” is that he lives by the faith of the Son of God. So where do you read into that him saying that he already has eternal life while living in the flesh here in this world? I don’t. Elsewhere Paul has said:

1 Corinthians 9:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


So Paul himself recognizes that his salvation is not guaranteed unless he “keep under his body” and “bring it into subjection”. So what he means by “Christ liveth in me” in Galatians 2:20 cannot be that he already has eternal life in this world, otherwise why should he want to be fearful that if he doesn’t do the right thing, he might himself become a “castaway”? So going back to you original question:

You claim Christ being life in us is metaphoric. What literal idea is it a metaphor for?
It depends on context in which that expression occurs. In the context of Galatians 2:20, it means that he lives by faith in Jesus Christ. That is the explanation that himself provides. He is not saying that he already has eternal life while living in the flesh here in this world. That is the answer to your question.
 
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