Eternal life......when?

T

TomFL

Guest
sorry I got you confused.
While I agree that the effect of atonement does not save you until you receive Christ, when you receive Christ to indwell you, at that moment you have life.
Yep


Like the op stated

Faith, Spirit then life
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
What passage are you referring to that states eternal life is given on judgement day, I'd like to see what you are looking at.
These will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Matthew 25:46

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his works: to those who patiently do good seeking for glory and honor and immortality - eternal life... on the Day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:5-16
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Yes they can

and the verses quoted do so

showing one must believe the gospel before being born again regenerated made alive - made alive

1Pet. 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
1Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

as the gospel must be believed to profit Heb 4:2

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

simply denying that is not persuasive

BTW continue reading in Psa 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (ESV)
1


The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.
Your theology is equivalent to saying that you decided who your parent are and when to be conceived.

God's children have no more say or decision making in becoming a child of God than deciding to be a child of your earthly parents.

Question......did you write your name in the Book of Life that was written before time? No.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Romans 4 says Abraham believed God while still ungodly; if faith justifies us, it necessarily logically follows that we exert faith while we are unjustified right. The Holy Spirit enables this faith in the lost.
Abraham was regenerate. Unregenerate children of men do not commune with God.

Abraham had a relationship with God.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Yes they can

and the verses quoted do so

showing one must believe the gospel before being born again regenerated made alive - made alive

1Pet. 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
1Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

as the gospel must be believed to profit Heb 4:2

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

simply denying that is not persuasive

BTW continue reading in Psa 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (ESV)
1


The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.
You have not addressed the condition of children of men......which refutes your position. Once you acknowledge your predicament then you might be able to harmonise your verses. That is if you wish to eliminate your contradiction.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Abraham was regenerate. Unregenerate children of men do not commune with God.

Abraham had a relationship with God.
You made two statements that are ideas that are not stated in scripture
1. Abraham was regenerate
2. Unregenerate do not commune with God

Now your word "commune" may be partly true as only the born again have a deep relationship with God. but the unregenerate must be able to hear Him, so they can be saved.
And it is a fairly well accepted idea in Christianity that OT prophets heard from God without being regenerated
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
You made two statements that are ideas that are not stated in scripture
1. Abraham was regenerate
2. Unregenerate do not commune with God

Now your word "commune" may be partly true as only the born again have a deep relationship with God. but the unregenerate must be able to hear Him, so they can be saved.
And it is a fairly well accepted idea in Christianity that OT prophets heard from God without being regenerated

And see my post 103 concerning God's opinion of the unregenerate children of men.

Lastly God wrote the names of all His future children in the Book of Life before time. Does not that settle the issue? The children of promise did not write their own names in the Book.

Oh and no unregenerate can hear from God unless God speaks audibly/physically such that they would hear with their physical ears.
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
And see my post 103 concerning God's opinion of the unregenerate children of men.

Lastly God wrote the names of all His future children in the Book of Life before time. Does not that settle the issue? The children of promise did not write their own names in the Book.

Oh and no unregenerate can hear from God unless God speaks audibly/physically such that they would hear with their physical ears.
Ok, I read post 103. I am saying i disagree and that you ideas have no scripture supporting them.
Your issue with who wrote the names in the book of life makes assumptions. One assumption is that you know what the book of life is. I think you may be claiming knowledge you don't have.
And again, you keep making statements without any scriptural support about who can hear God and how.

If you have scripture for some of these ideas you should cite those verses.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
On another thread I asked this simple question to a staunch Calvinists....and typically he evaded and did not answer my simple question. So I open the question to any and all Calvinists........

When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?

This is a divisive thread, posted to incite division.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

What does NOW, mean to you, Oldsaint24?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You have not addressed the condition of children of men......which refutes your position. Once you acknowledge your predicament then you might be able to harmonise your verses. That is if you wish to eliminate your contradiction.
Scripture clearly spoke

Yes they can

and the verses quoted do so

showing one must believe the gospel before being born again regenerated made alive - made alive

1Pet. 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
1Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

as the gospel must be believed to profit Heb 4:2

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

simply denying that is not persuasive

BTW continue reading in Psa 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (ESV)
1


The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.

and you have not addressed it


and you cant refute scripture
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

What does NOW, mean to you, Oldsaint24?
What does your post have to do with the op? I know that once one is regenerated to life they have life everlasting. Do not Calvinists believe this is fact? But seems no Calvinist will admit that fact.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Scripture clearly spoke

Yes they can

and the verses quoted do so

showing one must believe the gospel before being born again regenerated made alive - made alive

1Pet. 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
1Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

as the gospel must be believed to profit Heb 4:2

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

simply denying that is not persuasive

BTW continue reading in Psa 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (ESV)
1


The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.

and you have not addressed it


and you cant refute scripture
You verses ...or I should say.....your application of your verses contradict what God said about "children of MEN" in Ps.14 Ps. 53 and Rom.3

Your theology has a contrdiction.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Your theology is equivalent to saying that you decided who your parent are and when to be conceived.

God's children have no more say or decision making in becoming a child of God than deciding to be a child of your earthly parents.

Question......did you write your name in the Book of Life that was written before time? No.
Instead of just assuming spiritual birth corresponds exactly like physical birth you should address the scriptures posted

Yes they can

and the verses quoted do so

showing one must believe the gospel before being born again regenerated made alive - made alive

1Pet. 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
1Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

as the gospel must be believed to profit Heb 4:2

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

simply denying that is not persuasive

BTW continue reading in Psa 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (ESV)
1


The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.

For some reason you addressed none of it

regeneration is clearly through the gospel

It can't be through a gospel you don't understand or believe

for according to Heb 4:2 the gospel does not profit unless mixed with faith

So faith in the gospel is needed before one is born again


Now you need to actually address this and not resort to human rationalization

and BTW God not men determined to save those that believe
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Instead of just assuming spiritual birth corresponds exactly like physical birth you should address the scriptures posted

Yes they can

and the verses quoted do so

showing one must believe the gospel before being born again regenerated made alive - made alive

1Pet. 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
1Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

as the gospel must be believed to profit Heb 4:2

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

simply denying that is not persuasive

BTW continue reading in Psa 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (ESV)
1


The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.

For some reason you addressed none of it

regeneration is clearly through the gospel

It can't be through a gospel you don't understand or believe

for according to Heb 4:2 the gospel does not profit unless mixed with faith

So faith in the gospel is needed before one is born again


Now you need to actually address this and not resort to human rationalization

and BTW God not men determined to save those that believe
I understand your point of view. Will you at least acknowledge your view contradicts with what God said about unregenerate children of men? That is.....unregenerate children of men .....do not seek God.....do no understand the things of God......do nothing....NOTHING....good in the sight of God.

Will you acknowledge your interpretation of your selected verses create a contradiction with what God says about unregenerate children of men?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I understand your point of view. Will you at least acknowledge your view contradicts with what God said about unregenerate children of men? That is.....unregenerate children of men .....do not seek God.....do no understand the things of God......do nothing....NOTHING....good in the sight of God.

Will you acknowledge your interpretation of your selected verses create a contradiction with what God says about unregenerate children of men?
First you did not address the scriptures posted


Yes they can

and the verses quoted do so

showing one must believe the gospel before being born again regenerated made alive - made alive

1Pet. 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
1Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

as the gospel must be believed to profit Heb 4:2

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

simply denying that is not persuasive

BTW continue reading in Psa 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (ESV)
1


The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.

For some reason you addressed none of it

regeneration is clearly through the gospel

It can't be through a gospel you don't understand or believe

for according to Heb 4:2 the gospel does not profit unless mixed with faith

So faith in the gospel is needed before one is born again


now for what you do say

no I do not admit my view contradicts the word of God

first Rom 3 is a quote from psalms 14

I asked you to continue reading psalms 14 to the generation of the righteous

second continue reading rom 3 to

Romans 3:21-22 (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

There exists another means of righteousness without law

so no one is righteous according to law but the bible records many who were in fact declared righteous

All these were declared Righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

just quoting there are none righteous does not negate that; rather that quote must be understood in accord with the additional verses cited above

similarly seeking God

2Chr. 11:16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
2Chr. 14:4 And commanded Judah to seek the LORD God of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.
2Chr. 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.
2Chr. 20:3 And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.
2Chr. 20:4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.
2Chr. 30:19 That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.
2Chr. 34:3 For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.
Ezra 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,
Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Psa. 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
.
In any case the issue is responding to God not seeking God
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
What does your post have to do with the op? I know that once one is regenerated to life they have life everlasting. Do not Calvinists believe this is fact? But seems no Calvinist will admit that fact.
This passage directing answers OP. And haven't we addressed this question many times before? Is there a point, here, Oldsaint24?
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
This passage directing answers OP. And haven't we addressed this question many times before? Is there a point, here, Oldsaint24?
With the verse you quoted and the subject of the OP, are you under the assumption that upon the sovereign act of regeneration that the now regenerate is simultaneously a repentant, professing faithful believer in Jesus?

If you do not believe that.....how much time passes between regeneration and conversion? An hour? Day? Week? Month? Year? Decade? How long?
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
When the Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead man.......does the now regenerate man possess eternal life?

This is not the question you ask? The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth of the Gospel, that sinners are saved in a Redeemer who came to fulfill his Father's will through a Promise! So even our Faith is a Gift from God, and it's through Faith Alone in Christ Alone by Grace Alone that we are saved.

We are either dead or alive. There is no middle ground here Oldsaint24. And Scripture is clear that its God who raises the dead, not the other way around.

John 8:
The Truth Will Set You Free

31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

So if Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

We have to be freed, Oldsaint24.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
This is not the question you ask? The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth of the Gospel, that sinners are saved in a Redeemer who came to fulfill his Father's will through a Promise! So even our Faith is a Gift from God, and it's through Faith Alone in Christ Alone by Grace Alone that we are saved.

We are either dead or alive. There is no middle ground here Oldsaint24. And Scripture is clear that its God who raises the dead, not the other way around.

John 8:
The Truth Will Set You Free

31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

So if Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

We have to be freed, Oldsaint24.
Yes it is God who raises the dead. All the various soteriology's hold to that. Where they differ however
Is who God raises

Scripture many times shows it is those who believe that he raises (makes alive)

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 5:24-25 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 6:53 (KJV)
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Yes it is God who raises the dead. All the various soteriology's hold to that. Where they differ however
Is who God raises
Are believers chosen unto Faith or in view of their Faith? In other words is Election unconditional or conditional? Does God choose who will be saved, apart from their decision and effort, or does he choose those whom he knows will trust and obey?

So to answer your question above here, let's look at Scripture. In Ephesians 1 we read this:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

God chose us before the foundation of the world, according to his purpose and will.

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

You have a water down version of the human plight after the Fall, which is why it affects your view of God's election and Grace!

Scripture many times shows it is those who believe that he raises (makes alive)

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 5:24-25 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 6:53 (KJV)
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
These are Gospel passages, and we do not deny them. Yes, they must be preached to every sinner. But I ask you, why do a lot of people reject the Gospel, and some accept and believe?
 
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