Even C.T. Russell said Michael is not Christ.

imJRR

Active member
JW Quote from C.T. Russell stating that Michael is NOT Christ:

"His position is contrasted with men and angels, as
he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'.
Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him'
[that must included Michael, the chief angel; hence Michael
is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by
inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'"


(C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879, bracketed comment in the
original)





1970 "But when He again brings his First-born into the


inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship


him' Hebrews 1:6." (New World Translation, 1950, 1961,


1970 editions, [The NWT revised 1971 edition was changed to


read, "do obeisance to" rather than


"worship"])
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
I believe Jesus is Michael.
I also believe that Jesus/Michael is God.
The word angel just means "messenger" and Jesus is certainly the chief messenger (arch angel) from God the Father. Men were called angels (messengers - aggelos). Angel isn't a species or kind of being. It's a job description.

Where the JWs get it wrong is by (correctly) arguing that Jesus is Michael/the Angel of the Lord, they then (incorrectly) conclude this means that Jesus is not God. He most certainly is God, one of three members of the Godhead, the one true and living God.

Happy to give the long version of this if you are interested. I wrote an article about it a while back. (More a compilation of scripture than an article.)
 

e v e

Super Member
I believe Jesus is Michael.
I also believe that Jesus/Michael is God.
The word angel just means "messenger" and Jesus is certainly the chief messenger (arch angel) from God the Father. Men were called angels (messengers - aggelos). Angel isn't a species or kind of being. It's a job description.

Where the JWs get it wrong is by (correctly) arguing that Jesus is Michael/the Angel of the Lord, they then (incorrectly) conclude this means that Jesus is not God. He most certainly is God, one of three members of the Godhead, the one true and living God.

Happy to give the long version of this if you are interested. I wrote an article about it a while back. (More a compilation of scripture than an article.)

Dan. 8 ....

2) the used word as H4705 mi-tsár is a welded-combination of -miy (as in Michael) and tsa’ar; Michal is also part of the playout in 1 Sam.25, where the Attributes lost at the fall are returned; read : his sons and daughters have their change; the H4310 miy- as “whosoever, all those, any, etc”;

the angel Michael doesn’t mean “who is like God”, because the ‘who’ isn’t a question-preposition, but more “all those / who are of / the deity” (‘Miy-ky-el, Michael);, namely the 144,000, the manchild, because Michael represents the manchild, and when he stands up (Dan.12), the manchild stands up. the “all those” is linked to “to be bound up in a packet”... the reason that the horn could/can grow so large, is because of the satan realm‘s stealing of His attributes at the fall...
 

e v e

Super Member
we lost or original nature at the fall so it’s hard for many to conceive man in eden was not as he is today...

thus your explanation of aggelos
 

jamesh

Active member
I believe Jesus is Michael.
I also believe that Jesus/Michael is God.
The word angel just means "messenger" and Jesus is certainly the chief messenger (arch angel) from God the Father. Men were called angels (messengers - aggelos). Angel isn't a species or kind of being. It's a job description.

Where the JWs get it wrong is by (correctly) arguing that Jesus is Michael/the Angel of the Lord, they then (incorrectly) conclude this means that Jesus is not God. He most certainly is God, one of three members of the Godhead, the one true and living God.

Happy to give the long version of this if you are interested. I wrote an article about it a while back. (More a compilation of scripture than an article.)
I would like to hear the long version. Thank You!

In Him,
jamesh
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
I would like to hear the long version. Thank You!

In Him,
jamesh
The forum rules don't allow for "self promotion" and the long version is very long (would take many posts). May I send you the link to my article in PM? Or, if the mods/original poster don't mind, I can post here for everyone. I'm not trying to hide anything.
 

jamesh

Active member
The forum rules don't allow for "self promotion" and the long version is very long (would take many posts). May I send you the link to my article in PM? Or, if the mods/original poster don't mind, I can post here for everyone. I'm not trying to hide anything.
How about you just give 2 or 3 verses that support that Jesus is Michael the arc angel. Thank You!

In Him,
jamesh
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member

Hagar​


Genesis 16:7-13 - And the angel of Jehovah found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because Jehovah hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of Jehovah that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Hagar bore Ishmael to Abraham when he let Sarah talk him into helping God out with the promise He made. Hagar and Sarah never got along after that. Sarah dealt harshly with Hagar until she fled into the desert unknowingly pregnant with Ishmael. The angel spoke to Hagar near the fountain in the way to Shur and told her "Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude." When the "angel" left, Hagar "called the name of Jehovah that spake unto her, Thou God seest me" (verse 13). Hagar understood that the "angel of Jehovah" who had spoken to her was really God.
 

imJRR

Active member
This thread has now gone off the topic. I would ask that everyone either stay on topic - remembering that this forum is concerned with the beliefs of the JWs - or to please go elsewhere.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
This thread has now gone off the topic. I would ask that everyone either stay on topic - remembering that this forum is concerned with the beliefs of the JWs - or to please go elsewhere.
Is this not one of the beliefs of the JW? The point I was making was that they correctly conclude that Michael and Jesus are one in the same. They just then incorrectly conclude that means Jesus isn't God. Additionally, despite what their founder may have said, many of them do believe and teach this.

If the OP was not meant to generate discussion at all, then I apologize. The fact that CTR said what the OP stated is known and indisputable.
 

imJRR

Active member
The point is - This is a forum for discussion of JW beliefs. I do understand that you believe the JWs are wrong about Jesus not being God, but you are now posting your own views about Jesus being Michael. I don't think I'm asking for the moon here. I'm asking that people stick to the forum subject - that of JW beliefs. If you want to post your own views and have discussion on them, that's fine. But I don't believe this forum and this thread are the place.

And - although the quote by CTR is known - It may not be known by every JW who happens to come here. That's why I posted it.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Ok Kade, let me address what you posted. These verses and others like at Genesis 17:1-2, Genesis 18 or Judges 2:1 I use to prove that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as a man. The Jw's deny Jesus preexisted and also claim Jesus Christ Himself was created being. They use Proverbs 8:22 and Revelation 3:14, just to name a couple.

Now, to the point! Jesus is not Michael the arc angel and God Almighty at the same time. Jesus created Michael and the Jw's believe Jesus who to them Michael created all the other angels. To the Jw's Jesus is God the Father's first creation. Ask yourself this question? Why does or why would Jesus be Michael, an angel? What purpose would it serve since Jesus Himself as God the Son created the angels and everything else for that matter.

John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him, (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Colossians 1:16, "For by Him ALL things were created, (the word all means without exception), both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, (angels are in the heavens, and angels are invisible by nature) whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL things have been created BY Him and for Him."

I mentioned the Jw's use Revelation 3:14 to prove Jesus was created. "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God." The Greek word for "beginning" is arche. We get our English word "architect" from this word. What does an architect do? He's the "origin" the planner or the creator of anything that is made. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 back up what Revelation 3:14 means.

Getting back to the angel of the Lord. First of all the angel of the Lord never appears in the New Testament, even though he is mentioned in the NT, by Stephen at Acts 7. Acts 7:2, "And he said, Hear me, brethren and fathers. The God of glory APPEARED to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran." John 17:5, what Jesus said, "And now glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS."

I could go on and on explaining about the angel of the Lord and him be Jesus Christ, not Michael, but I want to get to the bottom line. You quoted Genesis 22, one of my favorite chapters. Just before vs 11 Abraham is going to slay his son. Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham! "And he said here I am." Vs12, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me." (Actually Abraham had a son older than Isaac).

Vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. vs16, and said, (the angel of the Lord is speaking here). By Myself I have sworn declares the Lord, because (or why) you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, "indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall posses the gate of their enemies."

Now look at what the writer of Hebrews says at Hebrews 6:13-14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

The point is that an angel cannot swear an oath on behalf of God Himself. Why? Because angels are not greater than God Himself. Therefore, Jesus can't be an angel, let alone Michael the arc angel. Jesus has two natures, one of deity and the other human being. Jesus Christ is God on His Fathers side because it is a universal law that a son shares the same nature as his father. This why Jesus Himself referred to Himself as (1) the Son of God, and (2) the Son of Man."

Everything you stated and all the verses you quoted are just fine, the problem is the conclusion you came up with that Jesus is Michael. And your right, "angel" simply means messenger. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." Your also right that the word can refer to humans. Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My, "malak/angel/messenger" and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

The person preparing the way of the Lord is John the Baptist, please read Mark 1:1-4. Who do you think is the messenger of the covenant? It sure ain't Michael. Who do you think is coming to His temple? In short, angels cannot multiply descendants, they cannot make covenant's, and they certainly cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty. Does this make sense to you Kade, and you to JRR?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
James, Ill have to post this elsewhere. We've been respectfully asked to move elsewhere and I intend to respect that.
 

imJRR

Active member
If I may interject here, and btw, welcome to CARM. I've been on CARM a little over 20 years now and there is nothing wrong with what Kade posted even if she has a slightly different view on what she believes about who Michael the arc angel is and the view of the JW's who also believe Jesus is Michael the arc angel but for a different reason.

I say this because she may learn something and you may learn something as well. I would agree with your objection if she brought up something entirely different like, "What is the great tribulation?" Were all here to learn what people believe and why they believe it, would you agree?

And here is the quote you gave by Charles T. Russell, I happen to have the original book that your quoting. In fact, I have an extensive library of JW materials. I can assure you (with proof/evidence) that Jesus Christ is not Michael the arc angel. Also here:
IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh

Actually, I believe there IS something wrong - at least there is for me, and that is this: What Kade is posting has to do way way more with focusing on her own views/beliefs about Jesus being Michael than posting about JW beliefs and teachings. To date, it is also way way more a two way conversation between her and yourself over her views.

With all due respect - Here is where I'm at:
* I did not start this thread for Kade to post her personal views and discuss them.
* I started this thread to deal directly with JW beliefs/teachings.
* So, to answer your question - No, I am not interested in learning or discussing Kade's personal views on Jesus being Michael. That is off-topic.
* If I seem rather terse in this posting, it is because the more I see how this thread has gone and is going, the more it looks like it is being or has already been hijacked, and I don't like that.

As for your last sentence above - You do not need to assure me in the slightest. I have a fair amount of information regarding the beliefs and teachings of the JWs myself. And that's what I had wanted to focus on in this thread - JW belief and teaching. I see that Kade has now been asked to take her personal belief discussion elsewhere. That's good, but whether this thread will ever or even can ever be brought back to the original focus....doubtful, IMO.
 

Nathan P

Member
JW Quote from C.T. Russell stating that Michael is NOT Christ:

"His position is contrasted with men and angels, as
he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'.
Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him'
[that must included Michael, the chief angel; hence Michael
is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by
inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'"


(C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879, bracketed comment in the
original)





1970 "But when He again brings his First-born into the


inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship


him' Hebrews 1:6." (New World Translation, 1950, 1961,


1970 editions, [The NWT revised 1971 edition was changed to


read, "do obeisance to" rather than


"worship"])
Only Jesus is the Son of God. And since Jesus is only documented from after the Word became flesh the Son of God has existed for only around 2,000 years. If Michael has been around longer than 2,000 or so years, then Jesus could not have been Michael.
 

e v e

Super Member
^^^ horrible.

not because of the michael topic, no comment that, but for saying christ only existed since recently.
 

Nathan P

Member
^^^ horrible.

not because of the michael topic, no comment that, but for saying christ only existed since recently.
It is a fact that Jesus has only been around for about 2,000 or so years according to the documentation of when there was a Jesus. Can you prove where it says Jesus or the Son of God existed before the Word became flesh? I mean show us where it says Son of God before the Word became flesh and do not twist scriptures and hint at the point you would be trying to make?
 
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