Even C.T. Russell said Michael is not Christ.

e v e

Super Member
Prove Jesus existed with documentation for longer than around 2,000 or so years ago?
I can't do that since I'm retired and older and my job here is not to study the text for you.
Instead, each soul needs to be their own translator, starting with Genesis 1.
Using an interlinear like at scripture4all.org is a good aid so you can see for yourself the hebrew
and not rely on other commentators and translations.

I've 20 years in academia reading texts. Many of those years I was agnostic.
Was reading Genesis with students when one day when I understood this point.

Good luck!
 

Nathan P

Member
I can't do that since I'm retired and older and my job here is not to study the text for you.
Instead, each soul needs to be their own translator, starting with Genesis 1.
Using an interlinear like at scripture4all.org is a good aid so you can see for yourself the hebrew
and not rely on other commentators and translations.

I've 20 years in academia reading texts. Many of those years I was agnostic.
Was reading Genesis with students when one day when I understood this point.

Good luck!
The point is you and no one else here can document there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and thus there has only been a Son of God for the last 2,000 or so years.
 

e v e

Super Member
The point is you and no one else here can document there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and thus there has only been a Son of God for the last 2,000 or so years.
Why would anyone need to?

He documents who He is, in His Words to us.

Maybe skip the kjv...a very polluted version...
and try scripture4all?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
It is a fact that Jesus has only been around for about 2,000 or so years according to the documentation of when there was a Jesus. Can you prove where it says Jesus or the Son of God existed before the Word became flesh? I mean show us where it says Son of God before the Word became flesh and do not twist scriptures and hint at the point you would be trying to make?
Nathan, as the author of this thread, I am going to request that you do something:

Since this particular forum is to be focused on the beliefs and teachings of the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses,
and since this particular thread deals directly with their teaching regarding Jesus Christ and Michael,
then either show how your postings on this thread relate to the beliefs and teachings of the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses when it comes to the focus of the forum, the original post of this thread and the actual subject of this thread,
or stop posting here.
 

Nathan P

Member
Nathan, as the author of this thread, I am going to request that you do something:

Since this particular forum is to be focused on the beliefs and teachings of the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses,
and since this particular thread deals directly with their teaching regarding Jesus Christ and Michael,
then either show how your postings on this thread relate to the beliefs and teachings of the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses when it comes to the focus of the forum, the original post of this thread and the actual subject of this thread,
or stop posting here.
I was replying to someone who said that God the Son has existed for all eternity and no one can prove he has. He has existed for around 2,000 years and no one can document that there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh. I am very much on topic and I am touching nerves I see.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I believe Jesus is Michael.
I also believe that Jesus/Michael is God.
The word angel just means "messenger" and Jesus is certainly the chief messenger (arch angel) from God the Father. Men were called angels (messengers - aggelos). Angel isn't a species or kind of being. It's a job description.

Where the JWs get it wrong is by (correctly) arguing that Jesus is Michael/the Angel of the Lord, they then (incorrectly) conclude this means that Jesus is not God. He most certainly is God, one of three members of the Godhead, the one true and living God.

Happy to give the long version of this if you are interested. I wrote an article about it a while back. (More a compilation of scripture than an article.)
deleted
 

imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! No nerve touched here. Imagine all you like.

Since God is eternal, and Jesus openly, clearly, directly told Philip that seeing Him = seeing God Himself (John 14:9), there you go.
 

Nathan P

Member
LOL! No nerve touched here. Imagine all you like.

Since God is eternal, and Jesus openly, clearly, directly told Philip that seeing Him = seeing God Himself (John 14:9), there you go.
The point is when is there documentation that Jesus existed and that is only after the Word became flesh. The jws say there was no God the Son and instead say there was only a Son of God and thus I am on topic.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
That may be your point, but THE point is that Jesus - God the Son - the Word (Who is eternal) - is God come in the flesh.
That is how it applies to JWs.
In terms of 'Son of God', that title is given to Jesus many times. John 3:16 is probably the most familiar reference.
Anyway, the JWs - as with they are with MANY other things - have this wrong.
Unfortunately and horribly tragically, getting this wrong separates them from God, makes them guilty of having a false Jesus Christ, a false message of salvation, and spiritual liars, deceivers and abusers of millions.
 
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Nathan P

Member
That may be your point, but THE point is that Jesus - God the Son - the Word (Who is eternal) - is God come in the flesh.
That is how it applies to JWs.
In terms of 'Son of God', that title is given to Jesus many times. John 3:16 is probably the most familiar reference.
Anyway, the JWs - as with they are with MANY other things - have this wrong.
Unfortunately and horribly tragically, getting this wrong separates them from God, makes them guilty of having a false Jesus Christ, a false message of salvation, and spiritual liars, deceivers and abusers of millions.
Are you saying the jws say the Word is God came in the flesh?
 

Nathan P

Member
As I said, He did that already. Now it's for the sons of Him to understand....
No one has documented there was a Son before the Word became flesh. As a matter of fact someone just tried to make a point by saying there is no documentation of the Father until the Son was manifested. Really and that is because until there was Jesus the Son there was just God and the only documentation of there being God the Father is about 2,000 or so years ago when the Word became flesh and there was a Son named Jesus.
 

e v e

Super Member
I believe Jesus is Michael.
I also believe that Jesus/Michael is God.
The word angel just means "messenger" and Jesus is certainly the chief messenger (arch angel) from God the Father. Men were called angels (messengers - aggelos). Angel isn't a species or kind of being. It's a job description.

Where the JWs get it wrong is by (correctly) arguing that Jesus is Michael/the Angel of the Lord, they then (incorrectly) conclude this means that Jesus is not God. He most certainly is God, one of three members of the Godhead, the one true and living God.

Happy to give the long version of this if you are interested. I wrote an article about it a while back. (More a compilation of scripture than an article.)

no.
 
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