Even C.T. Russell said Michael is not Christ.

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Suuure.

I'll submit that your personal declaration regarding me, in terms of my not wanting to discuss "to" and "into" should be seen as being on the same level as you declaring that I believe the moon really IS made out of green cheese.

I really, actually, truly and genuinely DON'T believe that.

Yes, I really DO believe that that needed to be openly stated, considering the imaginations that have been seen in your posts.

Your posts are totally and completely off-topic from the original post.
No you are off topic by not providing the proof to refute me of who else is worthy to know the information being told about the scroll to John by the angel (Jesus).
 

imJRR

Well-known member
From the dictionary representation means the description or portrayal of someone or something in a particular way or as being of a certain nature. It means the description or portrayal of someone and not that that someone is the same as that other one. We are all exact in human nature but we are not the same persons.

You keep (intentionally) missing a very important word - Christ radiates the glory of God Himself and is the EXACT representation of the Father. Everything the Father is, the Son is; there is nothing missing.


New International Version
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

English Standard Version
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Berean Study Bible
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Berean Literal Bible
who, being the radiance of His glory and the exact expression of His substance, and upholding all things by the power of His word, through having made the purification of sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

King James Bible
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

New King James Version
who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

New American Standard Bible
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

NASB 1995
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

NASB 1977
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Amplified Bible
The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. When He [Himself and no other] had [by offering Himself on the cross as a sacrifice for sin] accomplished purification from sins and established our freedom from guilt, He sat down [revealing His completed work] at the right hand of the Majesty on high [revealing His Divine authority],

Christian Standard Bible
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of his nature, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Contemporary English Version
God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.

Good News Translation
He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

International Standard Version
He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

NET Bible
The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.



You also totally run away from the Father openly and directly calling the Son "God" in Heb. 1:8.

And there are plenty of other verses that show and prove the Deity of Christ.
 

Nathan P

Active member
How about you explaining what your founder Russell stated about Jesus Christ not being an angel or even Michael the arc angel? Plus the fact that new light does not cancel out old light. I have the original books the photos were taken from. In short, Jesus is not an angel in which I have been trying to tell you for years.
IN GOD THE SON,
james
You have to be told over and over and over again the only way you can do that is by proving who else but Jesus is worthy to tell John the information the angel tells John?
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
I believe Jesus is Michael.
I also believe that Jesus/Michael is God.
The word angel just means "messenger" and Jesus is certainly the chief messenger (arch angel) from God the Father. Men were called angels (messengers - aggelos). Angel isn't a species or kind of being. It's a job description.

Where the JWs get it wrong is by (correctly) arguing that Jesus is Michael/the Angel of the Lord, they then (incorrectly) conclude this means that Jesus is not God. He most certainly is God, one of three members of the Godhead, the one true and living God.

Happy to give the long version of this if you are interested. I wrote an article about it a while back. (More a compilation of scripture than an article.)
You are right that Jesus is God, but 100% wrong to say He is Michael the Arch Angel because Jesus can rebuke and accuse Satan, but Michael can not as per Jude 9! Thus Michael is NOT God! Jesus is both fully God and fully human as a man as per John 1:1+14! He " was God " the WORD in John 1:1 and then became " Flesh " in John 1:14 as the God-Man then called Jesus Christ! Even after His death & resurrection, His name is still called the WORD in Rev.19:13 at His post-Trib. return to REIGN for 1000 years ( Rev.19:11-21 & 20:4-6 )!
 

Nathan P

Active member
You are right that Jesus is God, but 100% wrong to say He is Michael the Arch Angel because Jesus can rebuke and accuse Satan, but Michael can not as per Jude 9! Thus Michael is NOT God! Jesus is both fully God and fully human as a man as per John 1:1+14! He " was God " the WORD in John 1:1 and then became " Flesh " in John 1:14 as the God-Man then called Jesus Christ! Even after His death & resurrection, His name is still called the WORD in Rev.19:13 at His post-Trib. return to REIGN for 1000 years ( Rev.19:11-21 & 20:4-6 )!
How can Jesus be God at John 1:1 when he is not the creator there?
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
How can Jesus be God at John 1:1 when he is not the creator there?
Before His incarnation He " was God " the WORD and " was with God " ( the Father & Holy Spirit ) in John 1:1! John 1:3/ Col.1:16 says ALL things were made/created through/by Him ( precarnate Jesus Christ as He " was God " the WORD in John 1:1 )! The WORD who " was God " in John 1:1 was not called Jesus Christ till AFTER He became " FLESH " ( Incarnate - God the WORD in the Flesh ) in John 1:14 as the God-Man then named Jesus! Now do you GET IT?! Those scriptures tell us that TRUTH! His created Angels will NEVER worship anyone other than God! They worshiped Him ( Jesus the God-Man ) in Heb.1:6 and the God His Father called Him " O God " in Heb.1:8! Jesus Proved to the unbelievers that He was the " I AM " ( God ) of Exodus 3:14 that spoke to Moses as a burning bush in John 8:58, where He said He knew Abraham before Abraham was born! He had to pre-exist Abraham as God ( the Word of John 1:1 ) in order for that to be True! Hope this helps you to see that TRUTH!
 

Nathan P

Active member
Before His incarnation He " was God " the WORD and " was with God " ( the Father & Holy Spirit ) in John 1:1! John 1:3/ Col.1:16 says ALL things were made/created through/by Him ( precarnate Jesus Christ as He " was God " the WORD in John 1:1 )! The WORD who " was God " in John 1:1 was not called Jesus Christ till AFTER He became " FLESH " ( Incarnate - God the WORD in the Flesh ) in John 1:14 as the God-Man then named Jesus! Now do you GET IT?! Those scriptures tell us that TRUTH! His created Angels will NEVER worship anyone other than God! They worshiped Him ( Jesus the God-Man ) in Heb.1:6 and the God His Father called Him " O God " in Heb.1:8! Jesus Proved to the unbelievers that He was the " I AM " ( God ) of Exodus 3:14 that spoke to Moses as a burning bush in John 8:58, where He said He knew Abraham before Abraham was born! He had to pre-exist Abraham as God ( the Word of John 1:1 ) in order for that to be True! Hope this helps you to see that TRUTH!
How many times do I have to prove Jesus created nothing because the him was the creator at John 1:4 and since the life in the him was Jesus that means the him can not be Jesus too and the him who is the creator has to be the Father? Exactly there is no documentation of Jesus until after the Word became flesh and Jesus has only existed for about 2,000 years. Now do you get it? At col. 1:16 he is the visible image of the invisible God. Look up the word "of" in the dictionary and the subject is always to the right of the word "of". Also when someone would say that car of his the subject is him and the car is his. So the invisible God is the subject and he is an image of the subject. The creator there is the Father.Do you see the truth?
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
How many times do I have to prove Jesus created nothing because the him was the creator at John 1:4 and since the life in the him was Jesus that means the him can not be Jesus too and the him who is the creator has to be the Father? Exactly there is no documentation of Jesus until after the Word became flesh and Jesus has only existed for about 2,000 years. Now do you get it? At col. 1:16 he is the visible image of the invisible God. Look up the word "of" in the dictionary and the subject is always to the right of the word "of". Also when someone would say that car of his the subject is him and the car is his. So the invisible God is the subject and he is an image of the subject. The creator there is the Father.Do you see the truth?
100% WRONG! He ( Precarnate Jesus Christ ) " was with God " ( the Father & Holy Spirit ) Before Creation because ALL Things were made/created THROUGH/By Him as per John 1:3/Col.1:16! The Him was Him and He was NOT Created as He pre-existed All creation as God with God ( the Father & Holy Spirit! Case Closed! -----------------------------------------

John 1:1-14
New International Version

The Word Became Flesh​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He ( precarnate Jesus ) was with God ( the Father &Holy Spirit )in the beginning. 3 Through him ( Precarnate Jesus ) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him ( Precarnate Jesus ), the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh ( Incarnate as Jesus the God-Man ) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ------------------------

Colossians 1:16
New International Version

16 For by him ( Precarnate Jesus) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
 

Nathan P

Active member
John 1:3 & Col.1:16 ( Not John 1:1 ) says ALL things were Created Through & By Him! Case closed!
No it says the Father was the creator like you have been told many times because the him is the creator at vs 4 and the life in the him is Jesus. Meaning since there is only one Jesus the him can not be Jesus too and that leaves the him as God who is the creator. Prove the him is Jesus and I will prove the him can not be Jesus?
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
No it says the Father was the creator like you have been told many times because the him is the creator at vs 4 and the life in the him is Jesus. Meaning since there is only one Jesus the him can not be Jesus too and that leaves the him as God who is the creator. Prove the him is Jesus and I will prove the him can not be Jesus?
FYI the TRINITY ( FSHS ) is the Creator! The TRINITY even raised Jesus from the dead because The Son ( Jesus ) who does NOT Lie said He would Raise His destroyed Temple/body in 3 days in John 2:19-21! The Spirit ( Holy Spirit ) raised Him from the dead in Romans 8:11! God ( Trinity ) raised Him from the dead in Acts 10:40! God the Father Raised Him from the dead in Gal1:1! All Three ( the 3 in ONE ) raised Him from the dead! Case closed!
 

Nathan P

Active member
FYI the TRINITY ( FSHS ) is the Creator! The TRINITY even raised Jesus from the dead because The Son ( Jesus ) who does NOT Lie said He would Raise His destroyed Temple/body in 3 days in John 2:19-21! The Spirit ( Holy Spirit ) raised Him from the dead in Romans 8:11! God ( Trinity ) raised Him from the dead in Acts 10:40! God the Father Raised Him from the dead in Gal1:1! All Three ( the 3 in ONE ) raised Him from the dead! Case closed!
How many times do you have to be told to prove the him is Jesus and I will prove the him can not be Jesus and that leaves the Father as being the him who is the creator?. How many times do you have to be told that the life in the him was Jesus and that means the him can not be Jesus too?
 

Nathan P

Active member
FYI the TRINITY ( FSHS ) is the Creator! The TRINITY even raised Jesus from the dead because The Son ( Jesus ) who does NOT Lie said He would Raise His destroyed Temple/body in 3 days in John 2:19-21! The Spirit ( Holy Spirit ) raised Him from the dead in Romans 8:11! God ( Trinity ) raised Him from the dead in Acts 10:40! God the Father Raised Him from the dead in Gal1:1! All Three ( the 3 in ONE ) raised Him from the dead! Case closed!
The trinity could not have raised Jesus from the dead for 2 reasons and the first one is Jesus said I will raise it in 3 days and not that we will raise it in 3 days, then the 2nd reason is it says he was talking about the temple of his body or something other than his body. If someone says that car of his that means the car belongs to him and the car is not him and likewise when it said he was talking about the temple of his body he was not talking about his body and instead he was talking about something that belonged to him.
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
The trinity could not have raised Jesus from the dead for 2 reasons and the first one is Jesus said I will raise it in 3 days and not that we will raise it in 3 days, then the 2nd reason is it says he was talking about the temple of his body or something other than his body. If someone says that car of his that means the car belongs to him and the car is not him and likewise when it said he was talking about the temple of his body he was not talking about his body and instead he was talking about something that belonged to him.
Then you Deny the AS IS Scriptures ( God's Inspired say so to us ) that I Posted , as they mention all 3 ( FSHS ) raising Jesus's dead body! Jesus was talking about His body getting raised! And my posted scriptures do say the Holy Spirit raised His body and the Father raised His body! So even if you leave out Jesus, we still have the Father & Holy Spirit raising His dead body! Thus your so called ONLY the Farther Raised Him from the dead remains 100% rebuked ( 2 Tim.3:16 ) by those AS IS posted scriptures! Case closed!
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
How many times do you have to be told to prove the him is Jesus and I will prove the him can not be Jesus and that leaves the Father as being the him who is the creator?. How many times do you have to be told that the life in the him was Jesus and that means the him can not be Jesus too?
How many times must you be CORRECTLY Told that the one GOD consists of 3 Divine Persons ( FSHS - Matt.28:19 ) and each are called God individually in John 1:1 ; Acts 5:3-4 & Heb.1:8! Pre-carnate Jesus ( as God the Word, who was with God the Father & Holy Spirit ) is the Him in John 1:3/Col.1:16 Through/By whom All things were made/Created! Case closed!
 

Nathan P

Active member
How many times must you be CORRECTLY Told that the one GOD consists of 3 Divine Persons ( FSHS - Matt.28:19 ) and each are called God individually in John 1:1 ; Acts 5:3-4 & Heb.1:8! Pre-carnate Jesus ( as God the Word, who was with God the Father & Holy Spirit ) is the Him in John 1:3/Col.1:16 Through/By whom All things were made/Created! Case closed!
And I have proven at John 1 and col. 1 that the Father is the creator there and you all make it say what you want to by reading only part of it and not all of it.
 

Nathan P

Active member
Then you Deny the AS IS Scriptures ( God's Inspired say so to us ) that I Posted , as they mention all 3 ( FSHS ) raising Jesus's dead body! Jesus was talking about His body getting raised! And my posted scriptures do say the Holy Spirit raised His body and the Father raised His body! So even if you leave out Jesus, we still have the Father & Holy Spirit raising His dead body! Thus your so called ONLY the Farther Raised Him from the dead remains 100% rebuked ( 2 Tim.3:16 ) by those AS IS posted scriptures! Case closed!
Like you have been told it is talking about the temple of his body and not his body in the first one. And are you talking about Romans 8:11 in the second one? If so it is easy to prove the HS did not raise Jesus and instead it is talking about the HS that lives within them. I am waiting to refute what you say?
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
And I have proven at John 1 and col. 1 that the Father is the creator there and you all make it say what you want to by reading only part of it and not all of it.
You are only one third correct because I proved from scriptures that the ONE GOD ( TRINITY ) is the creator as John 1: ; Acts 5:3-4 & Heb.1:8 calls each of those 3 Divine persons in Matt.28:19 " God "! Thus your WRONG view ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) left out the Son & Holy Spirit! Yes the Son was included because John 1:3/Col.1:16 CLEARLY states that All things were Made/Created THROUGH/BY Him ( the Son )! Case closed!
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Like you have been told it is talking about the temple of his body and not his body in the first one. And are you talking about Romans 8:11 in the second one? If so it is easy to prove the HS did not raise Jesus and instead it is talking about the HS that lives within them. I am waiting to refute what you say?
And that is just your Twisted Opinion ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) of those AS IS scriptures that I Posted! Now lets get back to the Son ( Jesus Christ )! Do you believe that His ( the Sons ) pre-existence as the WORD in John 1:1 " was God " as most versions of the Bible say, " was a god " as your NWT of the Holy Scriptures?!
 
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