Even if by some miracle a first creature were to come to be, it is for naught. It will be destroyed and have no offspring.

The Pixie

Well-known member
But considering things tend to entropy...de-evolve it makes more sense that the RNA....started out as DNA
And how is that defined? Is this Shannon's entropy, the negative log base two of the probability?
Junk DNA.
So you define information entropy as "junk DNA". Thanks for making your position clear.

So your argument is that things tend to entropy, here defined as junk DNA, and therefore, in your opinion, it makes more sense that it started out as DNA... Hmm, I have no clue where you get that from.

I strongly suspect you have no clue either.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
For years they claimed that "junk" DNA was just junk. I think they are finding that is not true.
What is your take on human endogenous retroviruses?

The human genome contains billions of pieces of information and around 22,000 genes, but not all of it is, strictly speaking, human. Eight percent of our DNA consists of remnants of ancient viruses, and another 40 percent is made up of repetitive strings of genetic letters that is also thought to have a viral origin. Those extensive viral regions are much more than evolutionary relics: They may be deeply involved with a wide range of diseases including multiple sclerosis, hemophilia, and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), along with certain types of dementia and cancer.
In fact, some of the inactive DNA in any human genome derives from viral DNA. These human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs) are ancient viruses that integrated into an ancestral human genome long ago – sometimes dubbed ‘fossil viruses’. Usually they lose parts of their original sequences over time, due to mutations in the DNA sequences, but some retain whole genes that specify the production of viral proteins. They persist because they were inserted into human reproductive cells (a rare event) and thus passed on to new generations of humans.
We have accumulated quite a few ancient viruses, it seems; estimates vary between about 4 and 8% of the total human genome, but identifying individual HERVs is difficult because most of them are very rare. However, new research examining the genomes from around 2,500 people of varied ethnic origins found a total of nineteen new different HERVs or viral DNA sequences. Most of these were incomplete, but there was one full viral genome sequence among the new HERVs – only the second ever to be identified. Seventeen previously described viral sequences were also found.

Did Satan put them into our DNA to deceive? Did God do it to mess with us?

This is, of course, another issue creationists ignore as it does not fit the narrative.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
So you define information entropy as "junk DNA". Thanks for making your position clear.

So your argument is that things tend to entropy, here defined as junk DNA, and therefore, in your opinion, it makes more sense that it started out as DNA... Hmm, I have no clue where you get that from.

I strongly suspect you have no clue either.
Of course you have no clue. You don't get out much.
 

rossum

Well-known member
The first living thing could never have arisen by random processes.
We know. We agree with you. Why do you have to repeat yourself?

Therefore, God created all things.
No, you fail logic 101. Therefore the first living organism arose by some non-random processes.

What you have to do now, is to definitively eliminate all non-random processes, except for your particular version of God. It is that second step you have failed to do, hence your logic is faulty. You are missing an important step.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
We know. We agree with you. Why do you have to repeat yourself?


No, you fail logic 101. Therefore the first living organism arose by some non-random processes.

What you have to do now, is to definitively eliminate all non-random processes, except for your particular version of God. It is that second step you have failed to do, hence your logic is faulty. You are missing an important step.
It still does help your case at all.

First the odds against a large specific sequence of amino acids (20 types, 39 with handedness) are still too large even with allowing for a multitude of combinations that may work.

Now adding the problem of 100 million atoms of certain elements in certain bonds in a certain 3D position. This plus the amino acid sequence have to be in place at the same time. Where and how would such an arrangement of atoms and molecules be in that proximity to each other.

It is impossible.
 

rossum

Well-known member
First the odds against a large specific sequence of amino acids (20 types, 39 with handedness) are still too large even with allowing for a multitude of combinations that may work.
You are assuming protein first. That is a possible hypothesis, but there are others. For example, the mathematics for RNA world are different, because there are only four bases: ACGU, rather then 20 amino acids. That difference will change the probability calculation.

We know from experiment that random strands of RNA can be functional.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
You are assuming protein first. That is a possible hypothesis, but there are others. For example, the mathematics for RNA world are different, because there are only four bases: ACGU, rather then 20 amino acids. That difference will change the probability calculation.

We know from experiment that random strands of RNA can be functional.
The RNA world is another possibility except that creature RNA would still need lots of proteins to function. It also would be a more complicated creature. It would be way more impossible to come into existence through random processes.
So neither protein, RNS, DNA, or any combination can save evolution.
 

rossum

Well-known member
The RNA world is another possibility except that creature RNA would still need lots of proteins to function.
No. RNA is a jack-of-all-trades, and can function as both information storage and as enzymes (ribozymes). It is a master of neither, but it can do both jobs.

Self-replicating RNA molecules inside a lipid bilayer sack, feeding by diffusion from the surrounding chemical soup will work as a very very primitive first life. No proteins are needed initially. Proteins and DNA came later.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
No. RNA is a jack-of-all-trades, and can function as both information storage and as enzymes (ribozymes). It is a master of neither, but it can do both jobs.

Self-replicating RNA molecules inside a lipid bilayer sack, feeding by diffusion from the surrounding chemical soup will work as a very very primitive first life. No proteins are needed initially. Proteins and DNA came later.
RNA only replicates with the help of many proteins.
And since the bio layer is protecting the RNA and other internal things, how does it split into 2 without opening itself to destructive chemical reactions?
How does food and nutrients get in through the bio layer?\
How does waste get out?
How does DNA evolve?

It does not live. It will not replicate. The poor creature is finished without any offspring.
 

rossum

Well-known member
RNA only replicates with the help of many proteins.
In modern, evolved, life, yes. Back with new, unevolved life, it used ribozymes instead of proteins. The proteins came later, as did DNA.

And since the bio layer is protecting the RNA and other internal things, how does it split into 2 without opening itself to destructive chemical reactions?
Sloppily. No doubt some pieces leaked out, while others leaked in. Natural selection would eliminate any that lost essential pieces, or that took in poisonous chemicals. The cell contents would be multiple copies of short RNA strings. As long as each divided part had a few copies of all the essential strings then each part would be viable.

How does food and nutrients get in through the bio layer?
Diffusion. These are chemotrophs, so their food is relatively small molecules.

How does waste get out?
Diffusion, the same way modern bacteria do.

How does DNA evolve?
DNA is a chemical, it is not alive and does not evolve.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
The first living thing could never have arisen by random processes.
Again and again you trot out your ignorant, uniformed opinion as fact.

I have refuted this particular nonsense already, but I will do so again.

A particular sequence of 100,000 amino acids is a dubious number you have pulled from your backside, but we can go with that.​
If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of planets suitable for life, and a infinite number of "rolls of the die" for nature to try. In such a scenario, your 100,000 amino acid sequence will occur... an infinite number of times.​

Therefore, God created all things.
Why should I believe it was not Allah?
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
Again and again you trot out your ignorant, uniformed opinion as fact.

I have refuted this particular nonsense already, but I will do so again.

A particular sequence of 100,000 amino acids is a dubious number you have pulled from your backside, but we can go with that.​
If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of planets suitable for life, and a infinite number of "rolls of the die" for nature to try. In such a scenario, your 100,000 amino acid sequence will occur... an infinite number of times.​


Why should I believe it was not Allah?
The smaller the sequence, the odds rapidly are against survival and reproduction. It also actually requires even more miraculous events to produce all living things that have ever lived and all the amino acid sequences in all of them. There may have existed 10^50 total sequences of amino acids pairs in all living things.
The odds against that by random processes is 10^(10^50 to 1). Counting all the other things in a living cell or bacteria, the odds just of that orderliness is over 1 googolplex to 1. This of course does not include that fact that evolution of new function is impossible. So that would also require probably over 1 trillion miracles one after another in a particular order as if directed by an intelligent being, aka, God.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
The smaller the sequence, the odds rapidly are against survival and reproduction. It also actually requires even more miraculous events to produce all living things that have ever lived and all the amino acid sequences in all of them. There may have existed 10^50 total sequences of amino acids pairs in all living things.
The odds against that by random processes is 10^(10^50 to 1). Counting all the other things in a living cell or bacteria, the odds just of that orderliness is over 1 googolplex to 1. This of course does not include that fact that evolution of new function is impossible. So that would also require probably over 1 trillion miracles one after another in a particular order as if directed by an intelligent being, aka, God.
You do realise that all your numbers are less than infinity, don't you? In fact they are infinitely less than infinity. They are also less than the number of earthlike planets in the observable universe, let alone an infinite one. They are also less than the number of interacting chemicals on just one earthlike planet over the course of a billion years. Probability doesn't help you.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
You do realise that all your numbers are less than infinity, don't you? In fact they are infinitely less than infinity. They are also less than the number of earthlike planets in the observable universe, let alone an infinite one. They are also less than the number of interacting chemicals on just one earthlike planet over the course of a billion years. Probability doesn't help you.
Except of course, the first living thing, which I also showed to be impossible through natural processes.
And of course, the over 1 trillion miracles required to produce all living creatures which have ever lived.

But the odds themselves are overwhelming.

The odds against are more than 10^google to 1.
Then the over 1 trillion miracles required to produce all living creatures which have ever lived. Those are all impossible.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
A particular sequence of 100,000 amino acids is a dubious number you have pulled from your backside, but we can go with that.
If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of planets suitable for life, and a infinite number of "rolls of the die" for nature to try. In such a scenario, your 100,000 amino acid sequence will occur... an infinite number of times.
The smaller the sequence, the odds rapidly are against survival and reproduction.
I see you are just ignoring what I actually said, and going off into some new flight of fancy.

Your argument is destroys. Have the honest to admit. Or at least stop stop re-posting!

The smaller the sequence, the odds rapidly are against survival and reproduction. It also actually requires even more miraculous events to produce all living things that have ever lived and all the amino acid sequences in all of them.
So you think a miracle is needed each time a worm is born? This seems to be the implication of what you are saying.

In the real world, even creationist acknowledge that living things are born naturally. Yes, even with amino acid sequences in them.

There may have existed 10^50 total sequences of amino acids pairs in all living things.
Another number you pulled out of your backside?

The odds against that by random processes is 10^(10^50 to 1).
You do not understand probability, do you? If there are 20 amino acids, each in abundant supply, the probability of getting a specific sequence 10^50 amino acids long in a single event would be 20^(10^50) to 1.

We all agree the probability of that is absurdly small.

But that is not what evolutionists think happened. Evolutionists think evolution happened. Clue's in the name.

Counting all the other things in a living cell or bacteria, the odds just of that orderliness is over 1 googolplex to 1.
Another number extracted from your backside?

This of course does not include that fact that evolution of new function is impossible.
Another ignorant and uninformed opinion stated as fact.

So that would also require probably over 1 trillion miracles one after another in a particular order as if directed by an intelligent being, aka, God.
Why should I believe it was not Allah?

I asked this last time, and you evaded the question.

Like you are evading the question on argon-40 and poassium-40 in rocks.

Like you are evading the question on how eye types are distributed between different "kinds".
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
I see you are just ignoring what I actually said, and going off into some new flight of fancy.

Your argument is destroys. Have the honest to admit. Or at least stop stop re-posting!


So you think a miracle is needed each time a worm is born? This seems to be the implication of what you are saying.

In the real world, even creationist acknowledge that living things are born naturally. Yes, even with amino acid sequences in them.


Another number you pulled out of your backside?


You do not understand probability, do you? If there are 20 amino acids, each in abundant supply, the probability of getting a specific sequence 10^50 amino acids long in a single event would be 20^(10^50) to 1.

We all agree the probability of that is absurdly small.

But that is not what evolutionists think happened. Evolutionists think evolution happened. Clue's in the name.


Another number extracted from your backside?


Another ignorant and uninformed opinion stated as fact.


Why should I believe it was not Allah?

I asked this last time, and you evaded the question.

Like you are evading the question on argon-40 and poassium-40 in rocks.

Like you are evading the question on how eye types are distributed between different "kinds".
I have already proven the Bible is the true word of God.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Except of course, the first living thing, which I also showed to be impossible through natural processes.
And of course, the over 1 trillion miracles required to produce all living creatures which have ever lived.

But the odds themselves are overwhelming.

The odds against are more than 10^google to 1.
Then the over 1 trillion miracles required to produce all living creatures which have ever lived. Those are all impossible.
Improbable is not the same as impossible. Improbable, given sufficient opportunities, is almost guaranteed. "Overwhelming odds" is meaningless in a universe with overwhelming numbers of opportunities.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
Improbable is not the same as impossible. Improbable, given sufficient opportunities, is almost guaranteed. "Overwhelming odds" is meaningless in a universe with overwhelming numbers of opportunities.
The over 1 trillion impossibles were all impossible.
 
Top