Everything must be Fulfilled

[Keraz]

Just answer the questions asked.

I am willing to discuss issues and answer questions, but not to face an inquisition, as you tighten the thumbscrews.
I have made my beliefs and understanding of the Prophetic Word as clear as I can. Take the truth of the Prophets, or leave it; your prerogative.

 

[Josheb]

I am willing to discuss issues and answer questions, but not to face an inquisition, as you tighten the thumbscrews.

Great.

No inquisition. How about a few op-relevant questions asked in goodwill and good faith?

 

[docphin5]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 Now about the Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He is to gather us to Himself: I beg you, my friends, do not suddenly allow yourselves to be fooled by wrong teaching, or become alarmed by any so called prophetic utterance, alleging that the great Day of His Return has already come.

Let no one deceive you in any way, for that Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when evil will be revealed in human form by the man doomed to destruction. He is the adversary who promotes himself above every so-called god or object of worship and even enthrones himself in God’s Temple, claiming to be God. But the restraining power of the Holy Spirit ensures that he will be revealed only at the appointed time, because already the secret forces of wickedness are at work, secret only for now until the restraining Hand is removed. Then he will be exposed, the great deceiver of the ages, the one who the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the radiance of His presence.

This appearance of the wicked one is the work of Satan, it will be attended by all the powerful signs and miracles that falsehood can devise, all the deception that sinfulness can impose onto those doomed to destruction. All those people who refused to open their minds to the truth and so find salvation. Because they did not love truth or seek salvation, God has put them under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false. Therefore, all who refuse to believe the truth, but have made sinfulness their choice will be brought to judgement. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.



‘The Return of Jesus’, The Return in glory, to commence His Millennium reign. Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11

‘That Day cannot come…’ The Return will not come until all the happenings prophesied to occur before that Day are fulfilled. Such as the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl punishments of Revelation, commencing in our time with the next event of a terrible fire judgement; the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 3:8

‘The Adversary’, - That is: Satan, he empowers the Anti-Christ, who will be the leader of the forthcoming One World Government. He makes a peace treaty with New Israel, [Beulah – Isaiah 62:1-5] as those who gather in the holy Land will not be part of that worldwide government. Daniel 9:27

‘God’s Temple’, The Third Temple, to be built by the new inhabitants of Jerusalem. Zechariah 6:15 It will be ‘a Temple of greater splendour than Solomon’s’. Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 43:4

‘a compelling delusion’, Rom. 11:8. ‘Eyes that look, but cannot see – ears that hear, but cannot listen’, Deuteronomy 29:4, Matt. 13:14 This applies to those who ‘confuse themselves’, Isaiah 29:9-10, ‘you will stay confused’. That is: by believing false teachings, such as the pre tribulation rapture. Jeremiah 29:8-9, Zechariah 13:2

‘Brought to Judgement’, There are three judgements: Next: the judgement/ punishment of the nations. Then: at the Return, the destruction of Anti-Christ’s army and the separation of the ‘sheep and the goats’. After 1000 years comes the final Judgement of all peoples at the Great White Throne. Rev. 20:11-14

Here is a new perspective (but actually old) of what Paul was referring to in which everything described is natural but perceived through a religious, ie., “spiritual” consciousness.

Key
1) ”Satan”, “Antichrist”, “evil revealed in human form” = sinful flesh or matter
2) ”God’s temple” = pious, virtuous soul
3) ”final rebellion” = christian orthodoxy persecuting gnostic Jewish-christians, formerly the Essenes
4) ”coming delusion” = christian orthodoxy which erroneously teaches myths, superstitions, and esoteric stories as literal, historical events, —same as Pharisees who historicized and literalized the Law. “The veil” per Paul.
5) “The Day of the Lord” = “the millenial reign”= unique moral teacher on earth, per the Essenes, “For one DAY is a thousand years (a millenium) to the Lord”


Put it all together, Paul was predicting the rise of christian orthodoxy in lock step with Jewish orthodoxy who literalized the Bible and persecuted the gnostic Jewish-Christians, namely, the Essenes, leading the world into believing myths and superstitions. The main distinction between Jewish and christian orthodoxy is that the former denies a “Son of God”, whereas, the latter believes in one. But they both literalize scripture to their shame.

Subsequently, a unique moral teacher will return who will expound the scriptures, remind people what Paul taught, ie., “WHEN evil will be revealed in human form” —AGAIN, as sinful flesh, just as gnostic christians taught 2,000 years ago. (See Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea Scrolls)

Moreover, this adversary of all humans, this antichrist, will be found “where it does not belong”, ie., in the human soul, aka, “God’s temple”, ruling the human soul, setting itself up “as God”, MEANING the sinful fleshy impulses, the irrational thoughts, the passions that rule over those individuals who do not submit to the voice of conscience, the moral conscience, the divine nature, the virtues, “the SPIRIT of yeshua” potentially within each individual.

Therefore, arguably this prophesy has been fulfilled. The rebellion has already occurred. The antichrist has been revealed to reside in the temple of God. The millennial reign of Christ has begun as the “Day” of the Lord. Final judgment is imminent! And all of it is happening within a natural world. Perceived only by the religious conscience.

The forces of spirit and matter in this present world are gathering for a final battle, figuratively speaking, which spirit is predestined to win according to The Most High. The Son of Good triumphs in the end.

 

[cjab]

The antichrist has been revealed to reside in the temple of God. The millennial reign of Christ has begun as the “Day” of the Lord. Final judgment is imminent! And all of it is happening within a natural world. Perceived only by the religious conscience.

Not sure about your allusions to the Essenes and the Jews, but amillennialists credited the start of the millennium a long time ago, also the advent of man of lawlessness, which according to Servetus, was to be imputed to Roman papacy and the heads of its (nominally protestant) daughter churches, or at least those aligned to Roman Catholicism by the High Trinity doctrine. It should be emphasized that the churches themselves, i.e. the members, are not inevitably part of the rebellion or any rebellion, whether part of the hierarchy or not.

Alternatively Servetus may have been wrong, and we await the man of lawlessness.

 

[docphin5]

Not sure about your allusions to the Essenes and the Jews, but amillennialists credited the start of the millennium a long time ago, also the advent of man of lawlessness, which according to Servetus, was to be imputed to Roman papacy and the heads of its (nominally protestant) daughter churches, or at least those aligned to Roman Catholicism by the High Trinity doctrine. It should be emphasized that the churches themselves, i.e. the members, are not inevitably part of the rebellion or any rebellion, whether part of the hierarchy or not.

If, for the sake of argument (and it is an easy argument to make in light of the modern archaeological evidence), the christian orthodoxy, aka, catholic church and its subsequent sects, to include protestants, Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, etc., are the apostasy predicted by Paul then the members of the orthodox church and its sects are living in a delusion, having been misled by the false teachers of the original apostate church, and do not even know it. IOW, they are not consciously in rebellion because they have been indoctrinated into believing the error is true. That would be the genius of it from the perspective of the deceiver. Deceive one generation and all the rest will follow.

The point is not just another run of the mill conspiracy theory, but instead demonstrates the scale and the power of the deception by the “god of this world” to deceive the whole world without anyone (or very few) knowing that they are deceived. It is the Power, a universal power per Paul, to accomplish it without anyone knowing it happened, and only one Power has that capability, the Father of Lies himself who resides in the flesh as irrationality, passions, lusts, and error. Is that not what Paul stated to be the case?

In their case the god of this [material] world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers [or those who believed in error], to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, (2 cor 4:4)​

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (2 cor. 11:14)​

​

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, (Docphin: spirit versus sinful flesh) to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit [of Truth], you are not under the law. ​

Now the works of the [sinful] flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5)​

Alternatively Servetus may have been wrong, and we await the man of lawlessness.

 

[Keraz]

The point is not just another run of the mill conspiracy theory, but instead demonstrates the scale and the power of the deception by the “god of this world” to deceive the whole world without anyone (or very few) knowing that they are deceived. It is the Power, a universal power per Paul, to accomplish it without anyone knowing it happened, and only one Power has that capability, the Father of Lies himself who resides in the flesh as irrationality, passions, lusts, and error. Is that not what Paul stated to be the case?

Sure he does. But that does not preclude a final and literal fulfilment of Revelation and all the prophesies.
It is a mistake to spiritualize or to place the Prophesies in the past. If a Prophesy tell of something which can literally happen, then it will.
Allegories and symbols excepted. They are easily explained as representing an actuality.

God’s Plan for our Time:
As the years pass by, we may wonder what it is that the Lord has next for His creation. We know the story of how He destroyed an early civilization by the means of a great flood. Jesus prophesied that in the time of the end it will again be ‘as in the days of Noah’. We can’t know how bad that civilization was, but it seems they just got on with life much the same as we do today. From God’s point of view, their problem was they failed to acknowledge Him or respect His Laws, so their Creator simply wiped them out and virtually started over again, just like anything made that turns out defective is remoulded, or with breeding; try a new bloodline. Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:6-7, Romans 9:20-21

So are the world’s people today as bad as those in Noah’s day? It seems likely, as evidenced by the decline in moral standards and the widespread disbelief in the Creator God. Jeremiah 6:18-19, Psalms 10:13, Ezekiel 20:39

Several Bible verses tell us that God the Creator takes a keen interest in what is happening on earth. Revelation 2:23b, Job 34:21-22, Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 11:4-5, Jer. 32:18-19 In our perfectly balanced and organised universe, He is playing out a drama, a set piece carefully orchestrated and arranged so that each player can choose their own role. Each person is given a conscience; a moral intuition to be aware of what is right and what is wrong, so we all make our choices as to how we live our lives.

Today, the whole world is in a precarious state, with a population of over 8 billion. There is the capacity to produce enough food and provide a reasonable lifestyle for that many, but not the altruistic desire to do so and human mismanagement exacerbates the problems. Therefore the situation deteriorates, life is difficult and short for most and only relatively few live a good and fulfilling life, while most people do not acknowledge the one true God or keep His Laws. Over 100 Bible prophesies say how God will judge the world and punish His enemies, to once again ‘reset civilization’. Deuteronomy 32:35, Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 30:25-28, Habakkuk 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Thess. 1:8, Jeremiah 23:19-20, Revelation 14:17-20

Note that most of the prophesies about the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, which is the next prophesied event we can expect: being the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Rev. 6:12-17, state that this time He will use fire to ‘set the heavens ablaze, the earth will be enveloped in flames and all that is in it will be brought to judgement’. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 3:8

But the Lord’s people have a Powerful Advocate, He promises to protect and save His righteous people. Jer. 50:33-34, Isa. 51:16, Nahum 1:7, Psalms 60:4-5, Zech. 9:15-16
They will go to live in all of the holy Land; Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

Psalms 30:1-5 I shall exalt You Lord, for You have lifted me up and not let enemies prevail. I cried out to You and You healed me, You saved my life as I was sinking into the abyss. Sing praises to the Lord, all you His loyal servants, give thanks to His holy name. In His anger there is punishment, but in His favour there is life. There may be distress at nightfall, but the morning will bring rejoicing.

Ref: logostelos.info

 

[cjab]

They will go to live in all of the holy Land; Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

You're confusing OT prophecies with NT prophecies. The land of Israel is only of historical interest in the spiritual world of the New Testament.

 

[cjab]

If, for the sake of argument (and it is an easy argument to make in light of the modern archaeological evidence), the christian orthodoxy, aka, catholic church and its subsequent sects, to include protestants, Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, etc., are the apostasy predicted by Paul then the members of the orthodox church and its sects are living in a delusion, having been misled by the false teachers of the original apostate church, and do not even know it. IOW, they are not consciously in rebellion because they have been indoctrinated into believing the error is true. That would be the genius of it from the perspective of the deceiver. Deceive one generation and all the rest will follow

Yes, I think you're spot. It is surely a type of cultic deception, but rather more than your average cult.

The man of sin doesn't even sound like a church. May be some quasi State-endorsed definition of political correctness - perhaps the UN or some other world body - that replaces Christ as the mediator with itself. Incidentally in 2016 the UN placed atheists on a par with believers. The UN is a very atheist communist orientated institution.

Of course the Catholic church has long been on very dangerous territory in proclaiming itself as the only route to God, as if it were Christ himself, whom it conveniently promoted into being God so it could usurp Christ's place. Yet it has mellowed recently. However it still pretends to authority over all others. But we cannot discount an even greater power in the future based on inter-State tyranny. The UN is emerging as a very strong successor to Roman Catholicism as a world-power; and a quasi-religious secular power.

 

[docphin5]

Sure he does. But that does not preclude a final and literal fulfilment of Revelation and all the prophesies.
It is a mistake to spiritualize or to place the Prophesies in the past. If a Prophesy tell of something which can literally happen, then it will.
Allegories and symbols excepted. They are easily explained as representing an actuality.

God’s Plan for our Time:
As the years pass by, we may wonder what it is that the Lord has next for His creation. We know the story of how He destroyed an early civilization by the means of a great flood.

I hate to burst your bubble but the Biblical flood myth was borrowed from the Chaldeans, sumerians, and Akkadians, almost word for word, along with the creation myth, tower of Babel, and other myths. The original flood myth has been found on cuneiform tablets dug from the rubble of the Assyrian library. It is probably over five thousand years old.

Therefore, the Biblical flood myth is neither historical nor literal, but most likely a myth containing an underlying prophetic meaning. Based on the Book of Jubilees (found among the Dead Sea Scrolls) it appears to be a prophecy about the end of our present world which is why the canonical Jesus used it as an analogy for the end of the present world.

The church suppresses this information. You have to ask yourself, Why? (See my previous post)

Jesus prophesied that in the time of the end it will again be ‘as in the days of Noah’.

see above

We can’t know how bad that civilization was, but it seems they just got on with life much the same as we do today. From God’s point of view, their problem was they failed to acknowledge Him or respect His Laws, so their Creator simply wiped them out and virtually started over again, just like anything made that turns out defective is remoulded, or with breeding; try a new bloodline. Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:6-7, Romans 9:20-21

God’s point of a view is NOT, never was a literal historizing of the Bible myths. Instead the myths were written as esoteric stories with a hidden meaning, prophecy, or perspective of our reality, ONLY perceived by the “spiritual” mind, moral intellect, right reason. It takes a seer, prophet, or sage to unravel the enigmas. I merely cut short the process and read the Dead Sea Scrolls, arguably the secret interpretations of the Jewish-Christian sect led by the actual, historical anointed Ye-Shua of “the Way” around 100 BC. Again, the church will tell you nothing to see, move along, pay your tithes, keep believing what we tell you, and so on. And again I ask, Why? Why wouldn’t the christian leadership today want to know what the Essene community actually believed? The answer: because they held gnostic tenets, gnostic interpretations of Hebrew scripture. The church is never going to say, Ooops, our bad!

So are the world’s people today as bad as those in Noah’s day? It seems likely, as evidenced by the decline in moral standards and the widespread disbelief in the Creator God. Jeremiah 6:18-19, Psalms 10:13, Ezekiel 20:39

Several Bible verses tell us that God the Creator takes a keen interest in what is happening on earth. Revelation 2:23b, Job 34:21-22, Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 11:4-5, Jer. 32:18-19 In our perfectly balanced and organised universe,

The universe is not perfectly balanced. Instead it is at odds with itself, explicitly described by Paul as spirit versus flesh, truth versus error, light versus darkness, ye-shua versus the adversary, christ versus anti-christ. The duality in scripture cannot be missed. There is a spiritual WAR underlying our reality and very few perceive it. Again, the church says, nothing to see, move along, ”the world is perfectly balanced”, the material world is Good.

He is playing out a drama, a set piece carefully orchestrated and arranged so that each player can choose their own role. Each person is given a conscience; a moral intuition to be aware of what is right and what is wrong, so we all make our choices as to how we live our lives.

This I agree with at face value but probably not in the same way that you may hold them. The devil is in the details.

Today, the whole world is in a precarious state, with a population of over 8 billion. There is the capacity to produce enough food and provide a reasonable lifestyle for that many, but not the altruistic desire to do so and human mismanagement exacerbates the problems. Therefore the situation deteriorates, life is difficult and short for most and only relatively few live a good and fulfilling life, while most people do not acknowledge the one true God or keep His Laws. Over 100 Bible prophesies say how God will judge the world and punish His enemies, to once again ‘reset civilization’. Deuteronomy 32:35, Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 30:25-28, Habakkuk 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Thess. 1:8, Jeremiah 23:19-20, Revelation 14:17-20

And not one of those prophecies will happen as literally written because the religious conscience that wrote them held a perspective of things that the average Joe does not have. Moreover, the sages who wrote them were peering through a glass dimly, AT BEST. whereas the average Joe sees nothing at all and erroneously concludes the stories are to be taken literally.

Note that most of the prophesies about the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, which is the next prophesied event we can expect: being the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Rev. 6:12-17, state that this time He will use fire to ‘set the heavens ablaze, the earth will be enveloped in flames and all that is in it will be brought to judgement’. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 3:8

But the Lord’s people have a Powerful Advocate, He promises to protect and save His righteous people. Jer. 50:33-34, Isa. 51:16, Nahum 1:7, Psalms 60:4-5, Zech. 9:15-16
They will go to live in all of the holy Land; Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

Psalms 30:1-5 I shall exalt You Lord, for You have lifted me up and not let enemies prevail. I cried out to You and You healed me, You saved my life as I was sinking into the abyss. Sing praises to the Lord, all you His loyal servants, give thanks to His holy name. In His anger there is punishment, but in His favour there is life. There may be distress at nightfall, but the morning will bring rejoicing.

Ref: logostelos.info

 

[docphin5]

Yes, I think you're spot. It is surely a type of cultic deception, but rather more than your average cult.

The man of sin doesn't even sound like a church.

Key: (Addendum)
6) ”man of sin” = body of flesh

​

“We know that our old self Man (Greek: anthropos) was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Romans 6:6​

​

It supports the interpretation presented by me above (post #23). Just saying.

It is a war between spirit and sinful flesh or more appropriately, those powers that underly our reality, its cause or reason for it. A spiritual war understood by sages, prophets, hierophants going back to the beginning of recorded history. We (virtuous souls) wrestle against “cosmic powers” that underly, makeup, form this material world or sinful flesh, per Paul. Eph. 6:12.

May be some quasi State-endorsed definition of political correctness - perhaps the UN or some other world body - that replaces Christ as the mediator with itself. Incidentally in 2016 the UN placed atheists on a par with believers. The UN is a very atheist communist orientated institution.

Of course the Catholic church has long been on very dangerous territory in proclaiming itself as the only route to God, as if it were Christ himself, whom it conveniently promoted into being God so it could usurp Christ's place. Yet it has mellowed recently. However it still pretends to authority over all others. But we cannot discount an even greater power in the future based on inter-State tyranny. The UN is emerging as a very strong successor to Roman Catholicism as a world-power; and a quasi-religious secular power.

 

[cjab]

Key: (Addendum)
6) ”man of sin” = body of flesh

​

“We know that our old self Man (Greek: anthropos) was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Romans 6:6​

​

It supports the interpretation presented by me above (post #23). Just saying.

It is a war between spirit and sinful flesh or more appropriately, those powers that underly our reality, its cause or reason for it. A spiritual war understood by sages, prophets, hierophants going back to the beginning of recorded history. We (virtuous souls) wrestle against “cosmic powers” that underly, makeup, form this material world or sinful flesh, per Paul. Eph. 6:12.

I don't accept your "antichrist residing in the temple of God" bears the analogy to a mere body of flesh. Moreover a pagan isn't the temple of God. Only Christians are the temple of God.

I think the man of sin is probably personified by the reign of human law of some kind, law that is antithetical to the law of Christ. It is human law that par excellence sets itself up in the temple of God. It is human law that is regularly deified over and set against God. It is human law that put Christ to death. It is Babylon, with its immoral legal code, that is denotes as the fount of evil. The supremacy of legal constitutions over the law of God today is very common.

 

[docphin5]

I don't accept your "antichrist residing in the temple of God" bears the analogy to a mere body of flesh. Moreover a pagan isn't the temple of God. Only Christians are the temple of God.

According to Paul, the virtuous soul is the “temple of God”. Therefore, if the virtuous soul allows vice to settle in the soul rather than virtues, right reason, truth, moral perfection; and (+) the vices of the flesh are the works of the devil, then (=) logically, the antichrist (the one ”anti” to “christ” or virtue) is metaphorically “in God’s temple”.

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit (docphin: voice of conscience) dwells in you? (1 cor 3:16)​

​

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit,…the works of the flesh are evident:​

sexual immorality,​

impurity,​

sensuality,​

idolatry,​

sorcery,​

enmity,​

strife,​

jealousy,​

fits of anger,​

rivalries,​

dissensions,​

divisions,​

envy,​

drunkenness,​

orgies, and things like these.​

​

For all that is in the [material] world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is NOT from the Father but is from the world. (1 John 2:14)…This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already (4:3)…the whole [material] world lies in the power of the evil one. (5:19)​

​

…or better stated: the evil one underlies the material world. The material world is literally the evil one himself. And the moral consciousness “RISING” from it in the virtuous soul is the Good One who opposes antichrist.​

​

The following verse implies that the devil’s power comes from, within, “flesh and blood” through death, but also through temptations. Therefore, the christ (ie., the holy spirit, the voice of conscience, the moral intellect, the virtues, the ”spirit of yeshua”) took on flesh to overcome the devil’s power.

​

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, (hebrews 2:14)​

​

There is more. Just google “temptations” of the flesh and you will find that satan, antichrist, sin, lawlessness, etc., is always associated with It.

Put it all together and the antichrist has entered God’s temple, the pious virtuous soul, through the power of vice, temptation, irrational thoughts, error.

The “WAR” between Christ and Anti-Christ is within each and every human soul because we are both 1) flesh and 2) morally aware of right and wrong. Both christ and antichrist lie WITHIN the soul and body of each person trying to make it their own.

^^^^ this is what the religious conscience perceives.^^^^^

​

​

I think the man of sin is probably personified by the reign of human law of some kind, law that is antithetical to the law of Christ. It is human law that par excellence sets itself up in the temple of God. It is human law that is regularly deified over and set against God. It is human law that put Christ to death. It is Babylon, with its immoral legal code, that is denotes as the fount of evil. The supremacy of legal constitutions over the law of God today is very common.

Good luck with that. Maybe you will find what you seek.

 

[cjab]

Babylonian law was given over the worship of money, and the preservation of the cult of the Ishtar, the prostitute.

According to Paul, the virtuous soul is the “temple of God”. Therefore, if the virtuous soul allows vice to settle in the soul rather than virtues, right reason, truth, moral perfection; and (+) the vices of the flesh are the works of the devil, then (=) logically, the antichrist (the one ”anti” to “christ” or virtue) is metaphorically “in God’s temple”.

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit (docphin: voice of conscience) dwells in you? (1 cor 3:16)​

​

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit,…the works of the flesh are evident:​

sexual immorality,​

impurity,​

sensuality,​

idolatry,​

sorcery,​

enmity,​

strife,​

jealousy,​

fits of anger,​

rivalries,​

dissensions,​

divisions,​

envy,​

drunkenness,​

orgies, and things like these.​

​

For all that is in the [material] world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is NOT from the Father but is from the world. (1 John 2:14)…This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already (4:3)…the whole [material] world lies in the power of the evil one. (5:19)​

​

…or better stated: the evil one underlies the material world. The material world is literally the evil one himself. And the moral consciousness “RISING” from it in the virtuous soul is the Good One who opposes antichrist.​

​

The following verse implies that the devil’s power comes from, within, “flesh and blood” through death, but also through temptations. Therefore, the christ (ie., the holy spirit, the voice of conscience, the moral intellect, the virtues, the ”spirit of yeshua”) took on flesh to overcome the devil’s power.

​

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, (hebrews 2:14)​

​

There is more. Just google “temptations” of the flesh and you will find that satan, antichrist, sin, lawlessness, etc., is always associated with It.

Put it all together and the antichrist has entered God’s temple, the pious virtuous soul, through the power of vice, temptation, irrational thoughts, error.

The “WAR” between Christ and Anti-Christ is within each and every human soul because we are both 1) flesh and 2) morally aware of right and wrong. Both christ and antichrist lie WITHIN the soul and body of each person trying to make it their own.

^^^^ this is what the religious conscience perceives.^^^^^

​

The antichrist in scripture is someone that specifically disbelieves that Jesus is the Christ, and then denies that Jesus is the Christ publicly. It isn't mere sin. It entails the repudiation of Jesus as Savior. Moreover the spirit of antichrist replaces Jesus as savior with somebody / something else other than worship of God. The spirit of antichrist cannot co-exist in an individual believer. Such is impossible.

It is true that the spirit of antichrist entered the world the moment Jesus did, as John avers, so it's been with us for a long time.

But the man of sin of 1 Thess is not just your average antichrist / repudiator of Christ. It's clearly a very large and noticeable (at least to the initiated) political event involving political institutions.

The EU would be one such candidate as deprecating the law of Christ wholesale. The UN another. I am sure there are others. These multi-national "legal" bodies who promote systems of pagan law, and are of "savior of mankind" disposition, are very close to what is being spoken of.

Good luck with that. Maybe you will find what you seek.

I am not seeking the spirit of antichrist or the man of sin. (The former hits you in the face all the time: it doesn't need to be sought.) I have better things to do that seek after evil. After all, Proverbs 11:27 says, "he who seeks evil will find it." The "man of sin" could still be 500 years away. Who knows?

 

[Keraz]

I hate to burst your bubble but the Biblical flood myth was borrowed from the Chaldeans, sumerians, and Akkadians, almost word for word, along with the creation myth, tower of Babel, and other myths. The original flood myth has been found on cuneiform tablets dug from the rubble of the Assyrian library. It is probably over five thousand years old.

That there was a huge flood in ancient times, is proved by the geological record.

Tell me; how do you delineate what is myth and what is actual in the Bible? Just to suit your paradigm and beliefs, or from careful study and research?

The "man of sin" could still be 500 years away. Who knows?

There are many indications that the end times as Prophesied could commence very soon. Wait for the Day.... Zephaniah 3:8

 

[docphin5]

Babylonian law was given over the worship of money, and the preservation of the cult of the Ishtar, the prostitute.

So what? So does every country on the earth worship money, and have prostitutes, your country included. So what does Babylon have that we dont have?

The antichrist in scripture is someone that specifically disbelieves that Jesus is the Christ, and then denies that Jesus is the Christ publicly. It isn't mere sin. It entails the repudiation of Jesus as Savior. Moreover the spirit of antichrist replaces Jesus as savior with somebody / something else other than worship of God.

Nope. It is much more subtle than the mere verbally denying or accepting the mythical story of the canonical superman performing ”miracles” to include reassembling his decomposing corpse.

The more nuanced meaning is that to deny the same “anointing” that Yeshua exemplified as a moral teacher is to deny the moral intellect in oneself that guides one’s life. The historical Yeshua who lived at 100 BC and led “The Way”, started baptism and the Lord’s Supper (see Dead Sea Scrolls) was a moral teacher not a superhuman. To his followers he was super in that his example and teachings facilitated a moral awareness of the absolute Good God, but not super in the supernatural sense.

Mere profession or denying the name Yeshua has no efficacy for or against salvation one way or the other. It is living according to the same moral values that Yeshua lived which has efficacy. And to profess those moral values, aka, the anointing, that he had, for oneself has efficacy. Keep in mind that the Pharisees rejected the moral values of Yeshua. They rejected any alleged anointing that was upon him. So to reject that that anointing or moral leadership possessed by Yeshua earned the condemnation directed at the Pharisees. It has nothing to do with professing the miracles of the canonical Jesus. The anointing is moral leadership not miracles, signs, or wonders.

Frankly, you have been misled to think one must confess in a miraculous superman named Jesus whereas, in truth it is his moral example that we must profess for ourselves in order to be saved. How else can anyone be saved without living a virtuous life?

In that sense, the antichrist is the one who denies the moral life for oneself as exemplified by the anointed Yeshua (aka, Jesus Christ) himself.

The spirit of antichrist cannot co-exist in an individual believer. Such is impossible.

Then why do you covet what is unlawful or immoral?

It is true that the spirit of antichrist entered the world the moment Jesus did, as John avers, so it's been with us for a long time.

But the man of sin of 1 Thess is not just your average antichrist / repudiator of Christ. It's clearly a very large and noticeable (at least to the initiated) political event involving political institutions.

The EU would be one such candidate as deprecating the law of Christ wholesale. The UN another. I am sure there are others. These multi-national "legal" bodies who promote systems of pagan law, and are of "savior of mankind" disposition, are very close to what is being spoken of.


I am not seeking the spirit of antichrist or the man of sin. (The former hits you in the face all the time: it doesn't need to be sought.) I have better things to do that seek after evil. After all, Proverbs 11:27 says, "he who seeks evil will find it." The "man of sin" could still be 500 years away. Who knows?

 

[cjab]

That there was a huge flood in ancient times, is proved by the geological record.

Tell me; how do you delineate what is myth and what is actual in the Bible? Just to suit your paradigm and beliefs, or from careful study and research?

I don't regard any of the bible as myth, although I think some of the OT books are theological treatises and not strictly factual e.g. Esther.

There are many indications that the end times as Prophesied could commence very soon. Wait for the Day.... Zephaniah 3:8

Alternatively the man of sin was the secular papacy, and we've been living with the Man of Sin for 1500 years. The bible doesn't say how long this Man of Sin will last. It could be a very long time.

 

[cjab]

So what? So does every country on the earth worship money, and have prostitutes, your country included. So what does Babylon have that we dont have?


Nope. It is much more subtle than the mere verbally denying or accepting the mythical story of the canonical superman performing ”miracles” to include reassembling his decomposing corpse.

The more nuanced meaning is that to deny the same “anointing” that Yeshua exemplified as a moral teacher is to deny the moral intellect in oneself that guides one’s life. The historical Yeshua who lived at 100 BC and led “The Way”, started baptism and the Lord’s Supper (see Dead Sea Scrolls) was a moral teacher not a superhuman. To his followers he was super in that his example and teachings facilitated a moral awareness of the absolute Good God, but not super in the supernatural sense.

Mere profession or denying the name Yeshua has no efficacy for or against salvation one way or the other. It is living according to the same moral values that Yeshua lived which has efficacy. And to profess those moral values, aka, the anointing, that he had, for oneself has efficacy. Keep in mind that the Pharisees rejected the moral values of Yeshua. They rejected any alleged anointing that was upon him. So to reject that that anointing or moral leadership possessed by Yeshua was a jibe directed at the Pharisees. It has nothing to do with professing the miracles of the canonical Jesus. The anointing is moral leadership not miracles, signs, or wonders.

Frankly, you have been misled to think one must confess in a miraculous superman named Jesus whereas, in truth it is his moral example that we must profess for ourselves in order to be saved. How else can anyone be saved without living a virtuous life?

In that sense, the antichrist is the one who denies the moral life for oneself as exemplified by the anointed Yeshua himself.

Look, there's no point in talking about antichrist until we understand who Christ is.

What are you talking about with your:

The historical Yeshua who lived at 100 BC

What church or cult do you belong to?

I don't believe Jesus was a "superman".

 

[docphin5]

That there was a huge flood in ancient times, is proved by the geological record.

LOL. You should stop taking your science lessons from religious websites.

Tell me; how do you delineate what is myth and what is actual in the Bible? Just to suit your paradigm and beliefs, or from careful study and research?

That would require an answer longer than is possible in this forum. But at the risk of sounding flippant, the simplest explanation attributed to Jesus is found in the Gospel of Thomas.

Come to know what is in front of you, and that which is hidden will become clear to you.​

​

I was fortunate to receive an education in and work professionally in biomedical science, R&D, and medicine where knowing what is true in front of you is a necessity. I did not spend a career in theology where just about anything can be claimed as true, to include a human corpse reassembling his decomposing body.

I read a lot too which helps me appreciate the literary style of allegory. Therefore, I know a hidden meaning it when I read it because….I already know what is true in front of me.

There are many indications that the end times as Prophesied could commence very soon. Wait for the Day.... Zephaniah 3:8

Technically the “Last days” started around 100 BC. when the historical Yeshua actually lived. But that is another discussion entirely so I will leave it at that.

 

[docphin5]

Look, there's no point in talking about antichrist until we understand who Christ is.

What are you talking about with your:

Good point. Without agreeing on the definition of terms then we will just talk past each other.
see here
Did the historical Jesus live in 100 BC?

What church or cult do you belong to?

I don't believe Jesus was a "superman".

superhuman, superman, miracle worker, magic user, are essentially the same thing. Maybe the canonical Jesus did not leap tall buildings but he allegedly flew through the clouds. Splitting hairs over terms when the essence is the same is a waste of time.

 

[cjab]

Good point. Without agreeing on the definition of terms then we will just talk past each other.
see here
Did the historical Jesus live in 100 BC?


superhuman, superman, miracle worker, magic user, are essentially the same thing. Maybe the canonical Jesus did not leap tall buildings but he allegedly flew through the clouds. Splitting hairs over terms when the essence is the same is a waste of time.

OK, so you're not a Christian, which explains your misconception as to the antichrist.

I don't think you should be posting in the "theology" forum, as it's for Christians, which you're not.

There were obviously a lot of people in Israel down the ages inspired by the spirit of prophecy and a desire to fulfil the law. To associate the one that perhaps founded the Essenes with the Jesus of the gospels is absurd and farfetched, and relies on a misconception that there can only be one teacher of righteousness. Why? As Jesus said there had been many prophets etc, and also many false prophets. There is zero evidence for any connection with Jesus to anyone else but himself.

Indeed there is are huge incongruities, not only in time, between Jesus and the Essenes. The Essenses were a legalistic closed cult, and confined their activities to within their cult, whereas Jesus was not a cult person, but a miracle worker and a public teacher. He belonged to no cult, as he himself said:

Jhn 18:20 “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret."​

There is no connection between Jesus and "The original Master of Wisdom and Beloved Teacher of Righteousness of Jewish Messianic movement lived around 100 BC." To associate the two is an error of massive proportion.

_________________

When I was young I read a similar sort of ahistorical book called "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" by a pseudo-scholar John Allegro. Prior to his engagement with full-on fantasy, he was initially an archaeologistist working with the dead sea scrolls, and who became a teacher of heresy:

He posited that the Teacher of Righteousness had been martyred and crucified by Alexander Jannaeus, and that his followers believed he would reappear at the End time as Messiah, based on Qumran document Commentary on Nahum 1.4–9[11] (a position that he re-iterated in 1986).[12] His colleagues in Jerusalem immediately responded with a letter to the Times on 16 March 1956 refuting his claim.[5] The letter concluded,​

It is our conviction that either he [Allegro] has misread the texts or he has built up a chain of conjectures which the materials do not support.[13]​

Then he moved to The Sacred Mushroom and Christian Myth:

​

Allegro's book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (1970) argued that Christianity began as a shamanistic cult. In his books The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross and The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth (1979), Allegro put forward the theory that stories of early Christianity originated in an Essene clandestine cult centred around the use of psychedelic mushrooms, and that the New Testament is the coded record of this shamanistic cult.​

[source]

These people are just cranks. They are not true scholars and are not recognized by anyone as bona fide teachers of religion or history.