Eve's Offspring & Mary's

Dant01

Active member
.
Gen 3:15 . . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your offspring and hers. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Most everyone on both sides of the aisle agree that's a prophesy referring to Christ.
Now, the question we must resolve is the origin of Eve's offspring.

Her entire body was constructed with material taken from Adam's body, which of
course had to include her body's ovaries. So then any, and all, offspring produced
by Eve's ovaries have Adam to thank for their existence.

Ergo: even if Eve's offspring were all virgin-conceived they would still be Adam's
offspring because it was from his body's flesh and blood that Eve's body obtained
its flesh and blood.

There exists a pretty good number of sincere Christians out there who honestly
believe that Jesus' virgin conception disconnected him from Adam. But unless
someone can prove, without a hint of sensible doubt, that Mary's flesh and blood
did not descend from Eve's flesh and blood, then we must conclude that baby Jesus'
flesh and blood descended from Eve's; and if from Eve's, then from Adam's, and if
from Adam's, then from the very dust that God used to construct the first Man in
the book of Genesis.
_
 
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pilgrim

Well-known member
.
Gen 3:15 . . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your offspring and hers. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Most everyone on both sides of the aisle agree that's a prophesy referring to Christ.
Now, the question we must resolve is the origin of Eve's offspring.

Her entire body was constructed with material taken from Adam's body, which of
course had to include her body's ovaries. So then any, and all, offspring produced
by Eve's ovaries have Adam to thank for their existence.

Ergo: even if Eve's offspring were all virgin-conceived they would still be Adam's
offspring because it was from his body's flesh and blood that Eve's body obtained
its flesh and blood.

There exists a pretty good number of sincere Christians out there who honestly
believe that Jesus' virgin conception disconnected him from Adam. But unless
someone can prove, without a hint of sensible doubt, that Mary's flesh and blood
did not descend from Eve's flesh and blood, then we must conclude that baby Jesus'
flesh and blood descended from Eve's; and if from Eve's, then from Adam's, and if
from Adam's, then from the very dust that God used to construct the first Man in
the book of Genesis.
_
Enmity between Eve and the serpent after she sinned is fruitless and pointless. Between the two, satan already won.
Why would God do something fruitless and pointless?
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
.
Gen 3:15 . . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your offspring and hers. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Most everyone on both sides of the aisle agree that's a prophesy referring to Christ.
Now, the question we must resolve is the origin of Eve's offspring.

Her entire body was constructed with material taken from Adam's body, which of
course had to include her body's ovaries. So then any, and all, offspring produced
by Eve's ovaries have Adam to thank for their existence.

Ergo: even if Eve's offspring were all virgin-conceived they would still be Adam's
offspring because it was from his body's flesh and blood that Eve's body obtained
its flesh and blood.

There exists a pretty good number of sincere Christians out there who honestly
believe that Jesus' virgin conception disconnected him from Adam. But unless
someone can prove, without a hint of sensible doubt, that Mary's flesh and blood
did not descend from Eve's flesh and blood, then we must conclude that baby Jesus'
flesh and blood descended from Eve's; and if from Eve's, then from Adam's, and if
from Adam's, then from the very dust that God used to construct the first Man in
the book of Genesis.
_
Yes. Mary, along with all humanity, descended from Adam and Eve.

Eve - mother of all the living
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

.
Gen 3:15 . . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your offspring and hers.
He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Most everyone on both sides of the aisle agree that's a prophesy referring to Christ.
Now, the question we must resolve is the origin of Eve's offspring.


_
Sorry but it does not say He = Christ

But it says it - this "Enmity"
opposition; variance, separation, even to the point killing each other
and of war, amongst us


Easton's Bible Dictionary - Enmity
Enmity
deep-rooted hatred. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed" ( Genesis 3:15 ). The friendship of the world is "enmity with God" ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15 1 John 2:16 ). The "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" ( Romans 8:7 ). By the abrogation of the Mosaic institutes the "enmity" between Jew and Gentile is removed. They are reconciled, are "made one" ( Ephesians 2:15 Ephesians 2:16 ).

The Wheat and the Tares

as Paul says

Eph.2:11​

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in himself of twain one new man,
so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby:​
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Sorry but it does not say He = Christ

But it says it - this "Enmity"
opposition; variance, separation, even to the point killing each other
and of war, amongst us


Easton's Bible Dictionary - Enmity
Enmity
deep-rooted hatred. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed" ( Genesis 3:15 ). The friendship of the world is "enmity with God" ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15 1 John 2:16 ). The "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" ( Romans 8:7 ). By the abrogation of the Mosaic institutes the "enmity" between Jew and Gentile is removed. They are reconciled, are "made one" ( Ephesians 2:15 Ephesians 2:16 ).

The Wheat and the Tares

as Paul says

Eph.2:11

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,​
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;​
12 That at that time ye were without Christ,​
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,​
and strangers from the covenants of promise,​
having no hope, and without God in the world:​
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,​
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;​
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,​
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;​
for to make in himself of twain one new man,​
so making peace;​
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,​
having slain the enmity thereby:​
Sorry!

hu or hi: he, she, it
Original Word: הוּא
Part of Speech: pronoun 3rd person singular
Transliteration: hu or hi
Phonetic Spelling: (hoo)
Definition: he, she, it
 

Dant01

Active member
.
The Hebrew pronoun huw' (hoo) is ambiguous. Scholars oftentimes have to
exercise discretion when they translate that word; for example:

Gen 3:12 . . The man said, "The woman you put here with me--it gave me some
fruit from the tree"

Gen 3:16 . .Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and it shall rule over thee.

Gen 3:20 . . Adam called his wife's name Eve; because it was the mother of all
living.

Gen 4:4 . . And Abel, it also brought of the firstlings of his flock

Gen 4:20 . . And Adah bare Jabal: it was the father of such as dwell in tents

There are many instances in the Old Testament like those above where huw' is
better translated with a male or a female pronoun instead of the neutral "it".

Anyway, a number of experts agree that in Gen 3:15, huw' refers to Eve's offspring
rather than referring to the enmity between her offspring and the Serpent's.
_
 

Dant01

Active member
.
Rev 22:16 . . I am the offspring of David

The Greek word translated "offspring" is genos (ghen'-os) which basically refers to
kin, viz: one's relatives.

Christ's kinship with David is quite a bit more specific in Rom 1:1-3 where it says:

"Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh"

The Greek word translated "seed" in that passage is sperma (sper'-mah) which is a
bit ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual progeny as well as to biological
progeny; for example:

Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

That seed is obviously spiritual progeny; whereas David's is biological because it's
"according to the flesh" i.e. his physical human body.

Seeing as Jesus' dad Joseph played no role in his son's conception, and his wife was
a virgin at the time, then Jesus' physical connection to David defaults thru his
mother, i.e. Mary was related to David; which places her baby in David's tribe; the
tribe of Judah. (Heb 7:14)

This fact may be somewhat insignificant to most Gentiles-- other than their interest
in Christ's connection to Abraham's promises --but Jesus' physical connection to
David is extremely important to the Jews because in order to validate Jesus' right to
rule over the land of Israel, he absolutely must be biologically situated in the
Davidic dynasty: no getting around it. (2Sam 7:8 17 and Ps 89:3-4)


FAQ: From whence did baby Jesus obtain a Y chromosome for his male gender?

A: In the beginning, God constructed Eve's entire body with some material taken
from Adam's body, so I'd imagine it would be no more difficult for God to construct
a teensy little Y chromosome for baby Jesus with some material taken from Mary's
body.

The beauty of it is that a Y chromosome constructed with material taken from
Mary's body would not be an alien substance created ex nihilo; but would be 100%
natural, and easily traceable all the way back to Eve, and from thence to the very
dust that was used to construct Adam's body.

I can't prove any of this of course, but nevertheless I sincerely believe that what I
suggest herein actually took place when the power of the Most High overshadowed
Jesus' mom per Luke 1:35; and if my suggestion is true, then little Jesus was
thoroughly a Jew from top to bottom-- biologically descended from not only David,
but also Adam, the Man that God created in the book of Genesis.

Heb 2:17 . . He had to be made like his brethren in every way


NOTE: Most Christians will readily attest that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully
Man; while in reality a number of them believe he was some sort of divine hominid
implanted in Mary's uterus; i.e. they honestly believe Jesus' mom was his surrogate
mother rather than his biological mother.
_
 

AMOSFIVE

Active member
The Hebrew pronoun huw' (hoo) is ambiguous. Scholars ….

Anyway, a number of experts agree that in Gen 3:15, huw' refers to Eve's offspring
rather than referring to the enmity between her offspring and the Serpent's.
_
Not attempting to be rude here, and most certainly agree in some cases a translation of he/she would be more meaningful than it.

Would you kindly provide scriptural references to backup your submission that the Hebrew huw in this case refers to the offspring of Eve, complete with commentary, in a way that adds a cohesive interpretation to the text and explains the verse in a more enlightened manner than the argument @Buzzard laid out for the huw referring to enmity?

Afterall, @Buzzard put together an interesting cross-scriptural connection on the issue, providing a rather unique understanding of the verse, which makes sense, and I am rather hesitant to accept expert opinion, especially when appealed to as a vague unidentifiable group. After all, scientists have an appalling history of getting things all wrong and they’re considered experts.
 
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AMOSFIVE

Active member
An interesting little tie to Gen 3:15 found in Nebuchadnezzar‘s dream from Daniel 2: the legs of iron do the bruising.

Daniel 2:40 - KJV
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
I don’t know for sure what English translation version you’re using but if the Hebrew huw in Gen 3:15 is referring to the woman’s offspring (he) as you submit, opposed to the enmity (it) Buzzard submitted, and if we used the NIV version of the Bible, Daniel 2:40 doesn’t quite fit with Gen 3:15 on who/what is crushing the head.
Daniel 2:40 - NIV
Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.

Guess this one goes to the KJV column @Buzzard.
 
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AMOSFIVE

Active member
An interesting little tie to Gen 3:15 found in Nebuchadnezzar‘s dream from Daniel 2: the legs of iron do the bruising.

I suppose I could be a bit more precise to my meaning. Any connection between Gen 3:15 and Dan 2:40 is clouded with the translation of huw to he, which the NIV does and reads Gen 3:15 as the OP has stated.

The connection becomes clouded with respect to who/what is “crushing” and who/what is being “crushed”: The NIV reads Daniel 2:40 in such a way as to simply imply the fourth kingdom is merely crushing “all the other” kingdoms. I did check several other translations to see if this was the case and indeed, the non-KJV translations I looked at effectively all read the same with respect to Daniel 2:40 and Gen 3:15. (Note: I am Not saying I’m a KJVOist; I am absolutely new to the KJV issue and only recently have had to converse with others where the KJV appears to read differently and come to different doctrinal conclusions - hence why this particular thread was of interest to me and my curiosity was perked.)

The reading of the KJV, with huw translated as it, referring to the enmity in Gen 3:15, allows for the events of Christ’s life to be connected back to Genesis 3:15 through Daniel 2:40 as Rome was the instrument through which Satan nailed Christ to the cross.

I’m not saying this is proof that Daniel and Genesis are meant to be connected in this way. I am merely pointing out that the particulars of the use of huw = he vs. huw = it do provide different down stream scriptural ties and Buzzard’s pointing to a translation using huw = it suggests there is more in Gen 3:15 than when huw is translated as he.

So I’ll go back to my question:
Would you kindly provide scriptural references to backup your submission that the Hebrew huw in this case refers to the offspring of Eve, complete with commentary, in a way that adds a cohesive interpretation to the text and explains the verse in a more enlightened manner than the argument @Buzzard laid out for the huw referring to enmity?
 
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Buzzard

Well-known member
Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

thy seed---enmity --- her seed;

If you let Scripture interpert Scripture,
then we must go by the words of Paul


Eph.2:11


Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in himself of twain one new man,
so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby:

Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

thy seed---enmity --- her seed;


Guess this one goes to the KJV column @Buzzard.

Not necessarly;
as has been posted
the different translations reflect the beliefs of the Translators,

And I will put enmity
(
Enmity
deep-rooted hatred. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed" ( Genesis 3:15 ). The friendship of the world is "enmity with God" ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15 1 John 2:16 ). The "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" ( Romans 8:7 ). By the abrogation of the Mosaic institutes the "enmity" between Jew and Gentile is removed. They are reconciled, are "made one" ( Ephesians 2:15 Ephesians 2:16 ). )

between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

so they would translate it to say what they wanted it to say
 

AMOSFIVE

Active member
Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

thy seed---enmity --- her seed;

If you let Scripture interpert Scripture,
then we must go by the words of Paul


Eph.2:11


Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in himself of twain one new man,
so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby:

Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

thy seed---enmity --- her seed;




Not necessarly;
as has been posted
the different translations reflect the beliefs of the Translators,

And I will put enmity
(
Enmity
deep-rooted hatred. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed" ( Genesis 3:15 ). The friendship of the world is "enmity with God" ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15 1 John 2:16 ). The "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" ( Romans 8:7 ). By the abrogation of the Mosaic institutes the "enmity" between Jew and Gentile is removed. They are reconciled, are "made one" ( Ephesians 2:15 Ephesians 2:16 ). )

between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

so they would translate it to say what they wanted it to say
Are you suggesting that Gen 3:15 is not prophesy referring to the coming of the Messiah? That is Christ? If so, please articulate an argument as to why.

Are you proposing that Daniel 2 not be read in conjunction with Genesis 3? If so, please articulate an argument as to why.

I suppose I could be entirely missing your point. If so, would you kindly clarify your post and intent of communication?
 
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pilgrim

Well-known member
Are you suggesting that Gen 3:15 is not prophesy referring to the coming of the Messiah? That is Christ? If so, please articulate an argument as to why.

Are you proposing that Daniel 2 not be read in conjunction with Genesis 3? If so, please articulate an argument as to why.

I suppose I could be entirely missing your point. If so, would you kindly clarify your post and intent of communication?
Yes, that seems to be the suggestion, along with casting aside the reference to the virgin birth.

But its ok as long as "you let Scripture interpret Scripture", right?
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Yes, that seems to be the suggestion, along with casting aside the reference to the virgin birth.

But its ok as long as "you let Scripture interpret Scripture", right?
And perhaps you can tell us where there is any reference to a
"Virgin Birth" in Gen.ch 3

The Birth of Cain and Able comes in ch 4
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived,
and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel.​

I don't think Eve was Virgin when she bore 2 sons
So if Mary is the New Eve
what 2 sons did Mary bear

Deut 32: 1
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak;
and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,
my speech shall distil as the dew,
as the small rain upon the tender herb,
and as the showers upon the grass:
..
For their rock is not as our Rock,
even our enemies themselves being judges.

32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah:

their grapes are grapes of gall,
their clusters are bitter:


33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,
and the cruel venom of asps.



Pilgrim says
But its ok as long as "you let Scripture interpret Scripture", right?​

Maybe thats what happens when you let the Rock of the RCC
[interpert Scripture for you
 
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pilgrim

Well-known member
And perhaps you can tell us where there is any reference to a
"Virgin Birth" in Gen.ch 3


The Birth of Cain and Able comes in ch 4
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived,
and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel.​

I don't think Eve was Virgin when she bore 2 sons
So if Mary is the New Eve
what 2 sons did Mary bear

Deut 32: 1
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak;
and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,
my speech shall distil as the dew,
as the small rain upon the tender herb,
and as the showers upon the grass:
..
For their rock is not as our Rock,
even our enemies themselves being judges.

32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah:

their grapes are grapes of gall,
their clusters are bitter:


33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,
and the cruel venom of asps.



Pilgrim says​
But its ok as long as "you let Scripture interpret Scripture", right?​

Maybe thats what happens when you let the Rock of the RCC
[interpert Scripture for you
An internet search on that will reveal both Catholic and Protestant sites.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
//
An internet search on that will reveal both Catholic and Protestant sites.
I don't do that; you are the one makung the claim;
it on you to support it

in other words, your reply was a deflection


Whoopie-Whoopie-Do, about your opinions of men sites
as you well know the Protestants are all over the Map on most every thing

Pilgrim;
It not what men say, believe, and espouse
Rcc included

Pastor Pete says-----------------------------
Billy Bob Preach says-------------------
Thelma Lou says--------------
Father so and so says -----------------
and the list goes on and on and on

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him,
If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded,
though one rose from the dead.

its been that way from the Get-Go

A "Bible Study" is not reading some of the Many Books Solomon spake of
your CCC included
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
...

Pastor Pete says-----------------------------
Billy Bob Preach says-------------------
Thelma Lou says--------------
Father so and so says -----------------
and the list goes on and on and on

...
Buzzard says ---------

You can add your name to the list.
 
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