Evil

[SDAchristian]

No, he doesn't understand it that way. Jesus said he was there the day Satan crashed into the Earth; the Fall of Satan occurred after Creation...

AV Lk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven{G3772 ouranos}.

This is an open discussion, where I do apologetics for the words of GOD. Please consider Jesus' perspective.

I do know about the three heavens.

Our discussions, should not make Jesus a liar, You Agree ???

I know the difference between exegesis vs eisegesis.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[SDAchristian]

@Grayecxm @Graysonau This is what I mean when I said pick someone and go an extra mile with them. I pick you to go a mile with, not SDAchristian...

Notice that people will want to change the topic of your thread...

That is your opinion to state, here at CARM.

AV Ac 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

GOD is ONE, any topic of Love, Spirit and Truth is relative to that perspective.

Diagnostic questions are preferred to any kind of assumptions of Spirit and Truth.

In case, it was not clear from the OP, there are assumptions between the Husband and Wife, that need diagnosing.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[Grayecxm]

That is your opinion to state, here at CARM.

AV Ac 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

GOD is ONE, any topic of Love, Spirit and Truth is relative to that perspective.

Diagnostic questions are preferred to any kind of assumptions of Spirit and Truth.

In case, it was not clear from the OP, there are assumptions between the Husband and Wife, that need diagnosing.

Yours in Christ, Michael

Sda-
I appreciate all the verses you are quoting but it’s hard to know what you are trying to say- can we just both agree that the Bible is the absolute standard for truth?
With that as our foundation, could you articulate in your own words what you are saying? I’m just a bit confused reading your responses but it’s probably because I’m going through several replies trying to piece it together

 

[ReverendRV]

Isaiah 45:7 KJV; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Some Versions of the Bible interpret the word 'evil' here are 'calamity'; but should they? The word which is translated is the Hebrew word 'Ra', this word is found elsewhere in the Bible. "You must not eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and [Ra - calamity? Nah, Evil] for the day you eat of it you will die". No, the word in Isaiah also means Evil; people just want to water it down...

Now this is how God creates Evil; the clue is in the first part of the Verse. God forms the Light and creates Darkness; HOW?? This is how; God created the World, IE God 'C'reated the 'Material' World. When Light shines on Matter, a Dark Shadow is created (notice I am using Capital C's and Lower Case c's). God surreptitiously 'c'reates the Dark just by being LIGHT. ~ Now for the second half of the Verse. "I make Peace, and create Evil"; God also does this 'Surreptitiously', just by being "Good". Evil is a Consequence of our coming to the Knowledge of God's Goodness compared to us; this is how God is not Culpable for creating Evil...

Now this is an Addendum. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the Law of God, for by it we 'know' Sin...

Romans 7:7 NIV; What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

@Grayecxm Did you get a chance to read this? It's what I referred to as what I think is 'the" answer...

 

[Grayecxm]

@Grayecxm Did you get a chance to read this? It's what I referred to as what I think is 'the" answer...

Yeah, I think it’s unbiblical to say that God created evil and that seems to be what you’re trying to prove? Don’t want to put words in your mouth ?

 

[ReverendRV]

Yeah, I think it’s unbiblical to say that God created evil and that seems to be what you’re trying to prove? Don’t want to put words in your mouth ?

Yes, kind of. I'm trying to prove the Bible says God creates Evil, and I'm trying to prove how God does that without being Culpable as the Author of Sin...

 

[Theo1689]

Yeah, I think it’s unbiblical to say that God created evil and that seems to be what you’re trying to prove?

Is. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.

Now, many people don't like this idea, and they bend over backwards to try to deny it. They appeal to other translations, which render it, "calamity", as if that solves the problem.

So did God merely create "calamity", or did He simply create, "evil"?
Well, what is the Hebrew word that means "evil", and not just calamity, but the opposite of "good"?

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ("ra"), thou shalt not eat of it:

The Hebrew word for "evil" in Gen. 2:17, "good and evil", is "ra".
The Hebrew word for "evil" in Isa. 45:7, "evil", is "ra".

There are three things we have to watch out for:

1) If the Bible says something clearly, we need to be VERY careful before we start denying it.

2) If Isa. 45:7 doesn't mean what it says, then there must be some sort of source, independent of God, and over God, from where "evil" comes from. This poses TONS of new problems.

3) We have to be very careful to not reject what the Bible teaches, simply because we don't happen to like it.

 

[ReverendRV]

@Grayecxm Your husband would probably like that explanation...

 

[Grayecxm]

Yes, kind of. I'm trying to prove the Bible says God creates Evil, and I'm trying to prove how God does that without being Culpable as the Author of Sin...

To me that is the crux of the problem with Calvinism… it’s only option is a logical incoherent position that puts God as the author of evil. Whether it’s through decrees or whatever else.

and to use one verse and only accept one meaning of a word when other meanings for contextually better is also not the correct way to exegete?
In none of those verses does it say that God is the creator of evil. Creating us with the ability to know the difference isn’t the same thing (ie tree of knowledge)

 

[Grayecxm]

@Grayecxm Your husband would probably like that explanation...

Ha. I’m sure he would😜

 

[Theo1689]

To me that is the crux of the problem with Calvinism… it’s only option is a logical incoherent position that puts God as the author of evil. Whether it’s through decrees or whatever else.

I'm not sure why you label it a "problem", the only reason you offer is that you personally don't WANT it to be true. I don't think that's a good reason.

In none of those verses does it say that God is the creator of evil. Creating us with the ability to know the difference isn’t the same thing (ie tree of knowledge)

Okay, so having eaten of the fruit allows us to recognize "evil" when we see it.
But that doesn't answer the question of WHERE it comes from.

Where does evil come from, if not from God?
Please make your answer Biblical.

 

[Grayecxm]

Is. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.

Now, many people don't like this idea, and they bend over backwards to try to deny it. They appeal to other translations, which render it, "calamity", as if that solves the problem.

So did God merely create "calamity", or did He simply create, "evil"?
Well, what is the Hebrew word that means "evil", and not just calamity, but the opposite of "good"?

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ("ra"), thou shalt not eat of it:

The Hebrew word for "evil" in Gen. 2:17, "good and evil", is "ra".
The Hebrew word for "evil" in Isa. 45:7, "evil", is "ra".

There are three things we have to watch out for:

1) If the Bible says something clearly, we need to be VERY careful before we start denying it.

2) If Isa. 45:7 doesn't mean what it says, then there must be some sort of source, independent of God, and over God, from where "evil" comes from. This poses TONS of new problems.

3) We have to be very careful to not reject what the Bible teaches, simply because we don't happen to like it.

I love the Bible, I accept all of its teachings.

I think it’s a disservice to give one verse that goes against what we already know about God and force one meaning on it. and if Isaiah doesn’t mean what you’re making it mean, in your point number 2 - free will fits here perfectly without a shred of problems

 

[ReverendRV]

To me that is the crux of the problem with Calvinism… it’s only option is a logical incoherent position that puts God as the author of evil. Whether it’s through decrees or whatever else.

and to use one verse and only accept one meaning of a word when other meanings for contextually better is also not the correct way to exegete?
In none of those verses does it say that God is the creator of evil. Creating us with the ability to know the difference isn’t the same thing (ie tree of knowledge)

Okay, fair enough; but I haven't used just one verse. In my Gospel Tract, I used John 9 which was about the man born Blind. Jesus said no one Sinned that the man would be born Blind, but God wanted the man Blind for the purpose of receiving Glory from it; and so that God would give a Sign to them so they could believe Jesus was sent of God. I intended that to be understood as God Providentially Ordaining what the Disciples Called Sin...

 

[Theo1689]

I love the Bible, I accept all of its teachings.

Apparently you don't.

I think it’s a disservice to give one verse that goes against what we already know about God

I agree.
But how does the meaning of "evil" allegedly "go against what we already know about God"?

What verse says, "God does not create evil"?

and force one meaning on it. and if Isaiah doesn’t mean what you’re making it mean,

Again, it seems the only reason. you reject this BASIC meaning is because you personally don't like it, which is IMO not a valid reason.

in your point number 2 - free will fits here perfectly without a shred of problems

You still haven't explained where evil comes from, if not from God.

 

[Grayecxm]

I'm not sure why you label it a "problem", the only reason you offer is that you personally don't WANT it to be true. I don't think that's a good reason.



Okay, so having eaten of the fruit allows us to recognize "evil" when we see it.
But that doesn't answer the question of WHERE it comes from.

Where does evil come from, if not from God?
Please make your answer Biblical.

Theo, the problem is that it’s illogical and contradictory.
I’m not interested in what I “want“. I want to fully submit to the truth

evil comes from our free will. A gift God gave us to choose of our own volition. so many scriptures speak and in fact plead with us to serve God- to the non Calvinist evil is easily explained That’s been my position all along. That follows scripturally and logically.


I’m not interested in fighting - I just want a good rational discussion to help me understand more clearly.
thank you all for your patience- I am not an expert- just working this out in my heart

 

[Grayecxm]

Okay, fair enough; but I haven't used just one verse. In my Gospel Tract, I used John 9 which was about the man born Blind. Jesus said no one Sinned that the man would be born Blind, but God wanted the man Blind for the purpose of receiving Glory from it; and so that God would give a Sign and they believe that Jesus was sent of God. I intended that to be understood as God Providentially Ordaining what the Disciples Called Sin...

This example to me would be God allowing the sin that is already in the world to achieve his purposes.

thank you for your charitable grace to discuss with me and to disagree with kindness!

 

[ReverendRV]

This example to me would be God allowing the sin that is already in the world to achieve his purposes.

thank you for your charitable grace to discuss with me and to disagree with kindness!

You're welcome!

Now you are where I wanted you; why is God not Culpable for 'allowing' Sin? If there exists a smidgen of God involved for you, why is the smidgen I described enough to make God Culpable as the Author of Sin; but your explanation isn't?

 

[Grayecxm]

Apparently you don't.



I agree.
But how does the meaning of "evil" allegedly "go against what we already know about God"?

What verse says, "God does not create evil"?



Again, it seems the only reason. you reject this BASIC meaning is because you personally don't like it, which is IMO not a valid reason.



You still haven't explained where evil comes from, if not from God.

Theo- this is exactly the kind of conversation I wanted to avoid. Your response Is inflammatory- please don’t accuse me of not loving and wanting to uphold Gods word just because I disagree with something you wrote.

you couldn’t show me that God created evil so you’re turning it around on me.
i asked where it came from and you used one verse to paint God as the author of evil. I find it problematic.

to use terms like “BASIC” in all caps with reference to scripture is to talk down to me as if I’m incapable of understanding such simple things.
I’d like respect add I work through this and Grace to work it out. That’s why I came here , to this forum

 

[Theo1689]

Theo, the problem is that it’s illogical and contradictory.

It's "illogical" because .............. you say so, and no other reason?
It's "contradictory" because ............ you say so, and no other reason?

I studied formal logic in University, and there is NOTHING "illogical" about God creating evil.
I've studied the Bible for over 30 years, and there is NOTHING "contradictory" about God creating evil.

If you'd like to have a discussion, you need to offer some actual SUBSTANCE.

evil comes from our free will.

Well, first of all, there is no such thing as "free will".
And this is where I think you feel off the track. I think it's the wrong order to try to discuss where "evil" comes from, when you haven't even addressed the issue of "free will".

Further, suppose I accept that "evil" comes from our "free will".
Okay, so who created us? GOD.
So where did God ultimately come from? GOD.

Unless you want to say that we have creative powers independent of God, which is INCREDIBLY unBiblical.

(Btw, I've noticed that you never cite any Biblical passages for your answers. That's a problem, IMO. EVERY answer we base our theology from must be founded in the Bible.)

A gift God gave us to choose of our own volition. so many scriptures speak and in fact plead with us to serve God- to the non Calvinist evil is easily explained

And again, you never offer any actual passages.
But I know them all, and none of them teach "God gave man a free will".

"Choose life". That is an imperative, a command (not a "suggestion", or an "offer"), not some assertion that "God gave man a free will".
"Choose ye this day" This is direct at ISRAEL, not the world, and again is an imperative, and he is talking to someone who has already REJECTED Yahweh, and the "choice" he gives is between two sets of FALSE gods.

Where is "free will" in John 6:44? It's IMPOSSIBLE.
Where is "free will" in 1 Cor. 2:14? It's IMPOSSIBLE.
Where is "free will" in Rom. 8:7-8? It's IMPOSSIBLE.
Where is "free will" in John 3:3? It's IMPOSSIBLE.
Where is "free will" in Rom. 6:16-22? It's IMPOSSIBLE.
Where is "free will" in John 8:34? It's IMPOSSIBLE.
Where is "free will" in Eph. 2:1? It's IMPOSSIBLE.
Where is "free will" in Col. 2:13? It's IMPOSSIBLE.

Our wills are ENSLAVE, either in sin, or in righteousness.
Once we have been freed (passive) from one, we get enslaved to the other (Rom. 6:16ff).

That’s been my position all along. That follows scripturally and logically.

You've offered no Scripture.
And you've offered no "Logic".

I’m not interested in fighting - I just want a good rational discussion to help me understand more clearly.

Please forgive me... I tend to be direct, and blunt.
I like to get to the point.
But I don't mean any ill-will.
Please try to concentrate on my content, and not on any perceived tone.
(Good advice for EVERYONE in a textual medium, where we don't see body signals or vocal intonations.)

thank you all for your patience- I am not an expert- just working this out in my heart

Fair enough.

 

[Theo1689]

you couldn’t show me that God created evil so you’re turning it around on me.

Is. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I made a claim.
I proved it with Scripture.
If you make a claim, then YOU are likewise bound to support YOUR claims with Scripture.

i asked where it came from and you used one verse to paint God as the author of evil.

That's one more verse than YOU have ever shown.

I find it problematic.

You haven't DEMONSTRATED any alleged "problem".
Is it a secret?
Are you playing games with us?

to use terms like “BASIC” in all caps with reference to scripture is to talk down to me as if I’m incapable of understanding such simple things.

If you are going to summarily reject a foundational meaning of a term, you need a VERY good reason to do so. So far, you haven't offered ANY reasons.

I’d like respect add I work through this and Grace to work it out.

I would like respect as well.
So are you going to discuss the issues, or are you simply going to continue insulting me?