Evil

[Theo1689]

you couldn’t show me that God created evil so you’re turning it around on me.

Is. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I made a claim.
I proved it with Scripture.
If you make a claim, then YOU are likewise bound to support YOUR claims with Scripture.

i asked where it came from and you used one verse to paint God as the author of evil.

That's one more verse than YOU have ever shown.

I find it problematic.

You haven't DEMONSTRATED any alleged "problem".
Is it a secret?
Are you playing games with us?

to use terms like “BASIC” in all caps with reference to scripture is to talk down to me as if I’m incapable of understanding such simple things.

If you are going to summarily reject a foundational meaning of a term, you need a VERY good reason to do so. So far, you haven't offered ANY reasons.

I’d like respect add I work through this and Grace to work it out.

I would like respect as well.
So are you going to discuss the issues, or are you simply going to continue insulting me?

 

[Grayecxm]

Is. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I made a claim.
I proved it with Scripture.
If you make a claim, then YOU are likewise bound to support YOUR claims with Scripture.



That's one more verse than YOU have ever shown.



You haven't DEMONSTRATED any alleged "problem".
Is it a secret?
Are you playing games with us?



If you are going to summarily reject a foundational meaning of a term, you need a VERY good reason to do so. So far, you haven't offered ANY reasons.



I would like respect as well.
So are you going to discuss the issues, or are you simply going to continue insulting me?

Theo, you didn’t prove anything. You made a claim and took scripture out of context to do so. The context of Isaiah 45 is critical to correctly interpret it. God is rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. That’s not really a wise place to rest a doctrinal claim that God created evil IMO-but to each his own.

Secondly, I’m trying to understand what the logical argument is for the origination of evil.
it is inconsistent with scripture and yes with logic to say that a perfect and good God who is incapable of sin created sin.

i am not here to prove anything to you Theo- and it seems you are a very hostile type of personality so maybe just go away and let me work it out with others who have learned how to play nicely in the sandbox.

 

[ReverendRV]

Secondly, I’m trying to understand what the logical argument is for the origination of evil.
it is inconsistent with scripture and yes with logic to say that a perfect and good God who is incapable of sin created sin.

I thought I'd just note that you Conflated God creating Evil with God Creating Sin. The Verse didn't say God Creates Sin...

 

[Theo1689]

Theo, you didn’t prove anything. You made a claim and took scripture out of context to do so. The context of Isaiah 45 is critical to correctly interpret it.

How did I allegedly "take it out of context"?
Simply claiming something without evidence, doesn't make it so.

God is rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. That’s not really a wise place to rest a doctrinal claim that God created evil IMO-but to each his own.

That doesn't negate the FACT that the text says that God "created evil".

Secondly, I’m trying to understand what the logical argument is for the origination of evil.

It can only have come from God.
Otherwise you have to posit another independent deity, that Scripture not only does not know of, but in fact denies.

it is inconsistent with scripture

How so?
You refuse to say.

and yes with logic

How so?
You refuse to say.

to say that a perfect and good God who is incapable of sin created sin.

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.


Is. 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Is. 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Is. 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

i am not here to prove anything to you Theo-

So you want to make demands of others, but don't want to be held accountable for your own claims.
Got it.

and it seems you are a very hostile type of personality so maybe just go away and let me work it out with others who have learned how to play nicely in the sandbox.

Wow.... You are very rude and very bossy, yet you demand that we all treat you with "respect", all the while you treat us like garbage?

Luke 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luke 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

1Pet. 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
1Pet. 3:16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

 

[Grayecxm]

You're welcome!

Now you are where I wanted you; why is God not Culpable for 'allowing' Sin? If there exists a smidgen of God involved for you, why is the smidgen I described enough to make God Culpable as the Author of Sin; but your explanation isn't?

Ahh! I’m right where you want me so my husband would probably be ecstatic I’m confused about your question though

God won’t allow sin forever- it will be judged so I’m not sure how he would be culpable in that?

 

[Theo1689]

Ahh! I’m right where you want me so my husband would probably be ecstatic I’m confused about your question though

God won’t allow sin forever- it will be judged so I’m not sure how he would be culpable in that?

Was it evil to sell Joseph into slavery in Egypt?:

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

GOD did it.




Was it evil for Assyria to attack Israel?:

Is. 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Is. 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Is. 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

GOD did it.




Was it evil to murder the sinless Son of God?:

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

GOD did it.

 

[ReverendRV]

Ahh! I’m right where you want me so my husband would probably be ecstatic I’m confused about your question though

God won’t allow sin forever- it will be judged so I’m not sure how he would be culpable in that?

You did it again, you Conflated Evil with Sin...

I argue that it is the 'Meaning' in the person, that determines whether something is a Sin. Joseph's brothers 'meant' it for Evil but God 'Meant' it for Good, for the Saving of many lives. The kicker is that God and men 'Meant' the same exact thing, but only one meaning was Sinful. God Meant the Evil that Joseph be sold into Slavery; but because of God's Good Meaning, that Evil Act was not a Sin for God...

Your husband would like this as well

 

[Grayecxm]

Just googled and found this article-

What the Bible Says About the Origin of Evil - Focus on the Family

Did God create evil? Some people say no. They argue that man's free will is the source of evil. But didn't God create free will? And doesn't that make Him the ultimate source of evil? Doesn't that make Him responsible for our sins? Is that why the Lord says in Isaiah 45:7 (KJV), "I make peace...

www.focusonthefamily.com

What are your thoughts rev?

it makes sense to me but I’d love to hear your perspective as well

 

[Grayecxm]

You did it again, you Conflated Evil with Sin...

I argue that it is the 'Meaning' in the person, that determines whether something is a Sin. Joseph's brothers 'meant' it for Evil but God 'Meant' it for Good, for the Saving of many lives. The kicker is that God and men 'Meant' the same exact thing, but only one meaning was Sinful. God Meant the Evil that Joseph be sold into Slavery; but because of God's Good Meaning, that Evil Act was not a Sin for God...

Your husband would like this as well

Y’all would be best friends

that’s my understanding andi feel like I agree but wouldn’t that be the opposite of Calvinism?

does God decree all things? Wouldn’t that mean he decrees evil or sin? Or both?

 

[Grayecxm]

You did it again, you Conflated Evil with Sin...

I argue that it is the 'Meaning' in the person, that determines whether something is a Sin. Joseph's brothers 'meant' it for Evil but God 'Meant' it for Good, for the Saving of many lives. The kicker is that God and men 'Meant' the same exact thing, but only one meaning was Sinful. God Meant the Evil that Joseph be sold into Slavery; but because of God's Good Meaning, that Evil Act was not a Sin for God...

Your husband would like this as well

You did it again, you Conflated Evil with Sin...

I argue that it is the 'Meaning' in the person, that determines whether something is a Sin. Joseph's brothers 'meant' it for Evil but God 'Meant' it for Good, for the Saving of many lives. The kicker is that God and men 'Meant' the same exact thing, but only one meaning was Sinful. God Meant the Evil that Joseph be sold into Slavery; but because of God's Good Meaning, that Evil Act was not a Sin for God...

Your husband would like this as well

And you’re right- I guess I haven’t thought much about the difference between evil and sin in this conversation-

God hates them both right? Using sin to achieve his higher purpose isn’t inconsistent with a holy and perfect God. But it seems that “creating” evil would be?

 

[Theo1689]

Using sin to achieve his higher purpose isn’t inconsistent with a holy and perfect God.

Where does the Bible teach that?
(It seems like a reasonable question to me, I apologize if you find it insulting.)

 

[ReverendRV]

Just googled and found this article-

What the Bible Says About the Origin of Evil - Focus on the Family

Did God create evil? Some people say no. They argue that man's free will is the source of evil. But didn't God create free will? And doesn't that make Him the ultimate source of evil? Doesn't that make Him responsible for our sins? Is that why the Lord says in Isaiah 45:7 (KJV), "I make peace...

www.focusonthefamily.com

What are your thoughts rev?

it makes sense to me but I’d love to hear your perspective as well

It draws a distinction which could help your side; Theo and Civic would know more about that than me...

The word Ra is the same for the Tree of Evil, and for God creating Evil. In Covenant Theology, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is synonymous with the Ten Commandments; which also gives us the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This point should be kept in Mind, and if it's the Case, Ra does deal with Ethics and Morality too; along with Calamity...

 

[ReverendRV]

Y’all would be best friends

that’s my understanding andi feel like I agree but wouldn’t that be the opposite of Calvinism?

does God decree all things? Wouldn’t that mean he decrees evil or sin? Or both?

That's another point for God 'c'reating Evil. If you believe in the Providence of God even in the least, God is involved and you could say he's Culpable for Sin. Sooner or later, every Christian has to get to the point they agree that God has at least dipped his Toe in the Water of Providence...

 

[SDAchristian]

I appreciate all the verses you are quoting but it’s hard to know what you are trying to say- can we just both agree that the Bible is the absolute standard for truth?

Actually, GOD is the standard of Truth.

AV Ezk 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

AV Ezk 28:15-18 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

GOD's testimony is Truth to me. Lucifer had the free will choice to remain in GOD's "perfect" will. Lucifer then choose "iniquity", by GOD's free will gift to GOD's created being as a "cherub".

To everyone else, be very careful in handling GOD's own testimony here.

With that as our foundation, could you articulate in your own words what you are saying? I’m just a bit confused reading your responses but it’s probably because I’m going through several replies trying to piece it together

As far as my other replies, please read who they were written to.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[civic]

How did I allegedly "take it out of context"?
Simply claiming something without evidence, doesn't make it so.



That doesn't negate the FACT that the text says that God "created evil".



It can only have come from God.
Otherwise you have to posit another independent deity, that Scripture not only does not know of, but in fact denies.



How so?
You refuse to say.



How so?
You refuse to say.



Gen. 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.


Is. 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Is. 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Is. 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.



So you want to make demands of others, but don't want to be held accountable for your own claims.
Got it.



Wow.... You are very rude and very bossy, yet you demand that we all treat you with "respect", all the while you treat us like garbage?

Luke 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luke 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

1Pet. 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
1Pet. 3:16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

Yes when God declare that He hates , hardens, elects, passes over others, creates evil etc….. the human mind rebels against our Holy God as His ways/thoughts are above ours just as the heavens are above the earth. ( paraphrased). The natural / carnal mind opposes this because our ideas about “ fairness” do not line up with Gods . I’m going through this as we speak with my youngest son now who is 23 and allowing social media/culture to influence his Christianity in a negative way.

 

[ReverendRV]

God hates them both right? Using sin to achieve his higher purpose isn’t inconsistent with a holy and perfect God. But it seems that “creating” evil would be?

Now that's the Million Dollar Question...

God used the Evil of Joseph's brothers for Good, for the Saving of many lives. God has the Right to Punish people for their Sins (Joseph was a Sinner, so sending him into Slavery was a Just Punishment); or even by sending armies to carry away his people Israel. It's Evil for people to Conquer Natives and take their Land; right?

 

[ReverendRV]

@Grayecxm Since your husband is a Calvinist, are you an Arminian?

 

[Grayecxm]

@Grayecxm Since your husband is a Calvinist, are you an Arminian?

I haven’t studied Arminianism enough to say that I am one. I can only say that I disagree with Calvinism. It’s not easy to do that either because I’m surrounded by them

I guess I’m feeling stifled a bit in my life by almost an angry tone Calvinists take when their beliefs are questioned. thank you for being gracious with me-
I’m really just wanting to walk through these questions without anger and without being slapped in the face with a thousand scriptures. I’m not a biblical scholar- I’m doing my best to study and work through these issues and I have the highest respect for Gods word however so often verses are taken out of context and used to beat a point instead of proper exegesis-

like the previous poster- just paste a ton of scriptures and call it a day and be angry.
I’m not here to prove myself- I’m here because it’s an online forum for questions about Calvinism. I appreciate you taking the time with me.

 

[Grayecxm]

Now that's the Million Dollar Question...

God used the Evil of Joseph's brothers for Good, for the Saving of many lives. God has the Right to Punish people for their Sins (Joseph was a Sinner, so sending him into Slavery was a Just Punishment); or even by sending armies to carry away his people Israel. It's Evil for people to Conquer Natives and take their Land; right?

Agree-It may be evil for people to conquer natives and take their land because we are not God- our ways are sinful. God uses evil already birthed in the hearts of man to accomplish good.

 

[ReverendRV]

I haven’t studied Arminianism enough to say that I am one. I can only say that I disagree with Calvinism. It’s not easy to do that either because I’m surrounded by them

I guess I’m feeling stifled a bit in my life by almost an angry tone Calvinists take when their beliefs are questioned. thank you for being gracious with me-
I’m really just wanting to walk through these questions without anger and without being slapped in the face with a thousand scriptures. I’m not a biblical scholar- I’m doing my best to study and work through these issues and I have the highest respect for Gods word however so often verses are taken out of context and used to beat a point instead of proper exegesis-

like the previous poster- just paste a ton of scriptures and call it a day and be angry.
I’m not here to prove myself- I’m here because it’s an online forum for questions about Calvinism. I appreciate you taking the time with me.

Like I said, welcome to CARM. Everything is going to be fine. You can't stop people from aggravating you, but by now in life, you should know how to handle it...