Evil

[Theo1689]

I guess I’m feeling stifled a bit in my life by almost an angry tone Calvinists take when their beliefs are questioned. thank you for being gracious with me-

Maybe you should stop imagining an "angry tone" that isn't even there.

I’m really just wanting to walk through these questions without anger

And we're answering these questions equally "without anger".
The only "anger" I've seen in this thread has come from YOU.

and without being slapped in the face with a thousand scriptures.

Calvinists hold to "sola Scriptura".
We base ALL our beliefs on Scripture.

I’m not a biblical scholar- I’m doing my best to study and work through these issues and I have the highest respect for Gods word

It seems strange that you say you have a high respect for God's word but when it is shown to you, you interpret it as "a slap in the face".

however so often verses are taken out of context and used to beat a point instead of proper exegesis-

Proper exegesis certainly is important.
But simply saying, "I don't like what that says" is NOT "proper exegesis", and it's not an indication that anything has been "taken out of context".

like the previous poster- just paste a ton of scriptures

Like I said, Calvinists base ALL their doctrines on Scripture.
Scripture is VERY important to us.
It seems that all your comments about Scripture border on derogatory... "Slap in the face", "just paste a ton of scriptures".

and call it a day and be angry.

In case you weren't aware, bearing false witness is a sin.
I didn't "call it a day". I'm still here posting, and trying to respond to you, YOU are the one who has "called it a day" by refusing to respond to me (which is fine, but at least be honest about yourself).

And I haven't been "angry" at all in this thread, so once again, you might want to stop bearing false witness. It's a sin.

I’m not here to prove myself- I’m here because it’s an online forum for questions about Calvinism. I appreciate you taking the time with me.

As long as you continue to hold the (unBiblical) beliefs that you do, without question, you will never accept Calvinism. IMO you don't WANT to accept Calvinism. And that's perfectly fine by me. What I don't understand is what causes you to come to forums and pick fights with people who have only tried to help you.

 

[Theo1689]

Agree-It may be evil for people to conquer natives and take their land because we are not God- our ways are sinful. God uses evil already birthed in the hearts of man to accomplish good.

Now THAT is a statement "taken out of context".

 

[Grayecxm]

Sooner or later the Poster known as @TibiasDad will show up, and you will like him. He's fair and polite; and thinks like you...

Thank you, I look forward to it however I was hoping for the opposing side (you) as well- When I get into these discussions with my husband, he tells me that God decrees all things down to the feather that falls from a bird but that seems contradictory of a good God because he would have to decree all types of heinous sin -
Do you think that God decrees all sin?
I guess this is where my question of the origin of evil and sin comes from

 

[Grayecxm]

Now THAT is a statement "taken out of context".

I forgot to put the word “however” between “land” and “because”
Forgive me- I think rev understands my questions

 

[Theo1689]

Thank you, I look forward to it however I was hoping for the opposing side (you) as well- When I get into these discussions with my husband, he tells me that God decrees all things down to the feather that falls from a bird but that seems contradictory of a good God because he would have to decree all types of heinous sin -

Your husband is correct.

Do you think that God decrees all sin?

That's what the Bible teaches.

I guess this is where my question of the origin of evil and sin comes from

Your husband has the correct answer.
You simply don't want to hear it, IMO.


What "origin" can there be, other than God?
He is the ONLY "origin".

 

[Theo1689]

I forgot to put the word “however” between “land” and “because”
Forgive me- I think rev understands my questions

Even with that correction, it's still hopelessly out of context.
You want to artificially insert an UnBiblical order, "man screws up, God turns it into lemonade".

In point of fact God's POV and man's POV are parallel and simultaneous.

 

[Grayecxm]

Even with that correct, it's still hopelessly out of context.
You want to artificially insert an UnBiblical order, "man screws up, God turns it into lemonade".

In point of fact God's POV and man's POV are parallel and simultaneous.

Thank you for all your correction and grace with me today. I’ve felt the love of Jesus pouring out of your interactions with me and it’s really helped me see another perspective.

 

[ReverendRV]

Thank you, I look forward to it however I was hoping for the opposing side (you) as well- When I get into these discussions with my husband, he tells me that God decrees all things down to the feather that falls from a bird but that seems contradictory of a good God because he would have to decree all types of heinous sin -
Do you think that God decrees all sin?
I guess this is where my question of the origin of evil and sin comes from

God is not the Author of Sin. A few times in the Book of Jeremiah, God says it plain as day...

Jeremiah 32:35 NIV; They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

God is Omniscient, so Judah offering their babies in the fire to Molech did enter his Mind; but it never entered God Mind Causally, to Cause Sin...

Jeremiah 32:35 NIV; They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.


Now there is a difference between Evil and Sin. God 'c'reates Evil. As I said, God can punish Sinners through Evil, even Saved Sinners. In that regard, Evil is for a Good purpose...


Now the problem you are having is the connection between God's 'D'ecree and Man's 'd'ecree. As we see in Joseph and his brothers, God and the brothers decreed the same thing; but with different Meanings. When God Means for Evil to occur, to Cause Evil, that Evil Act is for Good...

 

[Carbon]

Theo, you didn’t prove anything. You made a claim and took scripture out of context to do so.

Curious, would you show how he took scripture out of context in Isiah 45?
Thanks.

The context of Isaiah 45 is critical to correctly interpret it. God is rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. That’s not really a wise place to rest a doctrinal claim that God created evil IMO-but to each his own.

That still don't explain how he has taken the verse out of context. Could you be a bit more specific and show how? It's a very important part of what is being discussed. Scripture says to always be ready to make a defense.
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 1 Peter 3.

Secondly, I’m trying to understand what the logical argument is for the origination of evil.

You have an interesting way of it so far, you've rejected anything which seems to be Calvinistic without a defense of what and why you believe what you believe.

it is inconsistent with scripture and yes with logic to say that a perfect and good God who is incapable of sin created sin.

Please, defend what you say with scripture than?

i am not here to prove anything to you Theo- and it seems you are a very hostile type of personality so maybe just go away and let me work it out with others who have learned how to play nicely in the sandbox.

There are all different types of personalities in life. Maybe you misunderstand him?

 

[Theo1689]

Thank you for all your correction and grace with me today. I’ve felt the love of Jesus pouring out of your interactions with me and it’s really helped me see another perspective.

This is a very strange and unexpected response:

It can be explained (IMO) in one of three ways:

1) Either you are mistaking me for someone else, perhaps ReverendRV;

2) Or you have finally realized I didn't have the "anger" you falsely projected onto me;

3) Or your response is dripping with anti-Christian sarcasm.

The most charitable conclusion I suppose would be choice #1. I hope I'm correct.


Just remember that I have never been sarcastic nor hurtful with you, but only desired to answer your questions in the most charitable and Biblical way possible.

 

[Carbon]

God is not the Author of Sin.

If God is sovereign, which He is, and if He didn't want sin to exist, it simply wouldn't exist. I know you agree.

Sin must be a part of God's plan or it wouldn't exist.

 

[ReverendRV]

If God is sovereign, which He is, and if He didn't want sin to exist, it simply wouldn't exist. I know you agree.

Sin must be a part of God's plan or it wouldn't exist.

I agree, and I know that as a Calvinist, you agree God is not the Author of Sin...

 

[Grayecxm]

Curious, would you show how he took scripture out of context in Isiah 45?
Thanks.


That still don't explain how he has taken the verse out of context. Could you be a bit more specific and show how? It's a very important part of what is being discussed. Scripture says to always be ready to make a defense.
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 1 Peter 3.

That’s not saying I need to have a defense ready to question Calvinism…
I’m here asking questions of what I’ve repeatedly stated are my opinions of Calvinist teachings and my attempt to understand them more clearly.
that was taken out of context- the scripture you’re using that I need to be prepared to defend myself is actually saying for me to always have ready a defense for the hope that lives within me. You just illustrated the point I made earlier.

As far as out of context in Isaiah, I posted a good article that broke it down and I told everyone I’m not a scholar but it made sense to me. I can definitely paste the exact paragraph for that if you’re interested.

You have an interesting way of it so far, you've rejected anything which seems to be Calvinistic without a defense of what and why you believe what you believe.

the reason I am here is to ask questions of Calvinism- that seems to be a problem for many of you? I’m not here to defend my beliefs- I’m just asking for clarification and rational discussion of the Calvinistic side of evil and sin.

Please, defend what you say with scripture than?

what do you want me to defend?

There are all different types of personalities in life. Maybe you misunderstand him?

it’s definitely possible

 

[Carbon]

I agree, and I know that as a Calvinist, you agree God is not the Author of Sin...

That would call for a deep discussion with fear of stumbling in the wrong place.

But ya know brother, I think many people don't know what sin is. It's trespass against the Holy Righteous God. If God said, thou shall not, and we do, we sin.

We do know God is sovereign, and if one thing works against His will, then He is not God.

Thinking about the problem of evil and sin, God created Adam and Eve good, they had no reason or motive to sin, they had to be deceived. Only other thing I'll say is, did Satan sneak in the garden or did God know he was there? If He knew he was there He also knew what he was there for.

 

[Carbon]

That’s not saying I need to have a defense ready to question Calvinism…

Your not claiming Calvinists are not Christians are you? No, I don't think you are.
So, if Calvinists are Christians why not defend what you believe which probably differs from Calvinism, that's not defending against Calvinism that defending the truth of what you believe to be true. Your here in this thread to discuss evil and where is came from, correct?
Perhaps Theo has made a good defense for how he believes. Test it, present scripture, perhaps we all can learn. You have some good question in the OP. I'd be interested in discussing them, but openly where all can be involved. Except for the cultists on the forum.

 

[Theo1689]

the reason I am here is to ask questions of Calvinism- that seems to be a problem for many of you? I’m not here to defend my beliefs- I’m just asking for clarification and rational discussion of the Calvinistic side of evil and sin.

I'm sorry, but now you're simply not being honest.

You're not here to "ask questions of Calvinism".
You're here to ARGUE against Calvinism.

We answer your question.
You respond, "That can't be true because we have free will".

We answer your question.
You respond, "That can't be true because it goes against God's nature".

If you were honest, and truly only here for your questions to be answered, you wouldn't constantly be offering rebuttals (ie. ARGUMENTS) to what we tell you.)

 

[Carbon]

if you believe that evil comes from our own hearts desire, does that not mean that God created something less than good?

Remember, they were deceived?

 

[Grayecxm]

Your not claiming Calvinists are not Christians are you? No, I don't think you are.
So, if Calvinists are Christians why not defend what you believe which probably differs from Calvinism, that's not defending against Calvinism that defending the truth of what you believe to be true. Your here in this thread to discuss evil and where is came from, correct?
Perhaps Theo has made a good defense for how he believes. Test it, present scripture, perhaps we all can learn. You have some good question in the OP. I'd be interested in discussing them, but openly where all can be involved. Except for the cultists on the forum.

No, I think this is a bit like fighting between family members - non essential

but it’s one thing to disagree and challenge someone- it’s another thing to tell someone what their intentions are or accuse them of not believing in the Bible.

 

[Grayecxm]

Remember, they were deceived?

Yes but wasn’t evil birthed from the heart of Satan? A created being?

just wrapping my head around this

 

[ReverendRV]

That would call for a deep discussion with fear of stumbling in the wrong place.

But ya know brother, I think many people don't know what sin is. It's trespass against the Holy Righteous God. If God said, thou shall not, and we do, we sin.

We do know God is sovereign, and if one thing works against His will, then He is not God.

Thinking about the problem of evil and sin, God created Adam and Eve good, they had no reason or motive to sin, they had to be deceived. Only other thing I'll say is, did Satan sneak in the garden or did God know he was there? If He knew he was there He also knew what he was there for.

Agreed. The 2nd LBCF Confession of Faith does say that God is not the Author of Sin though...