Evil

SDAchristian

Well-known member
And Satan was created by......?
AV Mt 24:24-25 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive{G4105 planao} the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

By Lucifer wandering(by a deliberate choice) away from Truth, Right ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Yes but wasn’t evil birthed from the heart of Satan? A created being?

just wrapping my head around this
I believe scripture says it was pride. As far as I know, God doesn't share much of that with us, it's part of His secret council. Therefore why and how is a mystery and really nothing to build a doctrine on. It should be good enough to know Satan is evil.

In the OP you said,

if you believe that evil comes from our own hearts desire, does that not mean that God created something less than good?
This is what you said your husband said?
Scripture teaches as far as I understand that Adam and Eve were good, therefore they were not inclined towards evil. Therefore, they would have to be deceived.

And if you say that we were given the capacity for evil but not for the choice to have faith, what would the point be?
I believe all real Christians who understand and agree with God's word know we are born guilty spiritually dead sinners. In Adam we all died. God did not say if you eat of this tree you will be sick, but if you eat of it you shall surely die. Original sin.

That's the problem with us, were born spiritually dead, not sick so we can still function spiritually to have a free will faith.

What would be the point to say you have a capacity for evil and also for a choice to have faith? Why would we need Christ if that were the case?
 

Grayecxm

Member
That depends on what Scripture teaches.
Yes, you’re right.
Can you show me a scripture that says that God decrees all things from them largest to smallest- every action and sin?
I guess it all boils down to the decrees of God and I don’t see that in scripture but again, I’m no scholar. And can you go one at a time? Instead of some huge mountain- I need small bites- thank you
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
By Lucifer wandering(by a deliberate choice) away from Truth, Right ???

Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt by a "conscious choice".
Yet it was still God who ultimately caused it to happen.

And Assyria attacked Israel in Isa. 10 by a "conscious choice".
Yet it was still God who ultimately caused it to happen.

And the Jews and the Romans murdered Jesus by a "conscious choice".
Yet it was still God who ultimately caused it to happen.

So I'm not really sure why you think your question is the least bit relevant.
 

Rockson

Well-known member

please don’t comment with a thousand Bible verses, I am not interested in cut and paste answers, I really want someone’s biblical perspective and thoughts as to a perfect God who decrees all things but yet evils very existence.
God didn't create evil. I think what you're looking for is something that rationally makes sense and Jesus DID speak on that level as well. (seeing you don't want many Bible verses)
It seems to be a logical incoherency that a perfect God created evil.
It is. And he didn't.
My husband gives the pat answer that it comes from our hearts but if God decrees all things, down to the smallest degree, how can it be?
So why do you think God decrees are things. Is God's pleasure always done? I think a Calvinist would say YES. When he says I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked well that would have to mean God decreed that his pleasure wouldn't be done. So I think we can see the decreeing of things must be understood in a certain context not the way a Calvinist would have it.

if you believe that evil comes from our own hearts desire, does that not mean that God created something less than good?
But you're setting aside.....the freedom to choose IS GOOD. God stands by that because FREEDOM is connected to LOVE they go hand in hand.

 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
God didn't create evil. I think what you're looking for is something that rationally makes sense and Jesus DID speak on that level as well. (seeing you don't want many Bible verses)

It is. And he didn't.

So why do you think God decrees are things. Is God's pleasure always done? I think a Calvinist would say YES. When he says I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked well that would have to mean God decreed that his pleasure wouldn't be done. So I think we can see the decreeing of things must be understood in a certain context not the way a Calvinist would have it.


But you're setting aside.....the freedom to choose IS GOOD. God stands by that because FREEDOM is connected to LOVE they go hand in hand.
@Grayecxm I recommend when you speak with someone new here, ask them if they're Arminian or Calvinist; or something else. You will find it helpful instead of assuming you are speaking with a Calvinist. Sorry for saying this on your Post Rockson, I just think it's good advice for her. I've already told her that she can receive good points from most here...
 

Grayecxm

Member
I believe scripture says it was pride. As far as I know, God doesn't share much of that with us, it's part of His secret council. Therefore why and how is a mystery and really nothing to build a doctrine on. It should be good enough to know Satan is evil.
pride is from the heart correct?

In the OP you said,


This is what you said your husband said?
Scripture teaches as far as I understand that Adam and Eve were good, therefore they were not inclined towards evil. Therefore, they would have to be deceived.
Adam and Eve weren’t perfect though so that’s kind of a place of hardship for need as well- they were good as in a baby is good but also having the capacity to sin correct?

I believe all real Christians who understand and agree with God's word know we are born guilty spiritually dead sinners. In Adam we all died. God did not say if you eat of this tree you will be sick, but if you eat of it you shall surely die. Original sin.

That's the problem with us, were born spiritually dead, not sick so we can still function spiritually to have a free will faith.

What would be the point to say you have a capacity for evil and also for a choice to have faith? Why would we need Christ if that were the case?
This according to my understanding would be the T- total depravity and I’m not sure I truly believe that we have an inability to love or understand the gospel message- can you give me that scripture?
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Jer 17:9-10 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, [I} try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.
That depends on what Scripture teaches.
AV Mt 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Jesus had a Point Of View, as well.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yes, you’re right.
Can you show me a scripture that says that God decrees all things from them largest to smallest- every action and sin?

<sigh>
1) I've shown you Gen. 50:20,
2) I've shown you Isa. 10:5-7,
3) I've shown you Acts 4:27-28,

and you've treated it with disdain and insult, as if it was Kryptonite.

There's also this:

4) Psa. 37:23 The steps of a man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

5) Prov. 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

6) Prov. 20:24 A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?

7) Jer. 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.


But the point is that supposing you don't accept the above.... If you don't provide Scripture for your view, then the only answer we can give is, "I don't know". I believe the above are sufficient to prove the point.

Can you provide any Scripture to support your view? (And I'm sorry if you find my question insulting, I think it's a valid question.)

I guess it all boils down to the decrees of God and I don’t see that in scripture but again, I’m no scholar. And can you go one at a time? Instead of some huge mountain- I need small bites- thank you

This post will always be there.
You can respond to one at a time, and then when you're ready to respond to the next one, this post will still be here to access.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Jer 17:9-10 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, [I} try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.

AV Mt 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Jesus had a Point Of View, as well.

Yours in Christ, Michael

Sorry, I can't decode what you're trying to say.
 

Grayecxm

Member
God didn't create evil. I think what you're looking for is something that rationally makes sense and Jesus DID speak on that level as well. (seeing you don't want many Bible verses)
I’m good with Bible verses but I’d like them attached to interpretation that someone is using them for instead of just pasting a bunch.

It is. And he didn't.

So why do you think God decrees are things. Is God's pleasure always done? I think a Calvinist would say YES. When he says I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked well that would have to mean God decreed that his pleasure wouldn't be done. So I think we can see the decreeing of things must be understood in a certain context not the way a Calvinist would have it.

I’m going to think on this- interesting thoughts
But you're setting aside.....the freedom to choose IS GOOD. God stands by that because FREEDOM is connected to LOVE they go hand in hand.
I agree with this.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
pride is from the heart correct?
Yes, I do believe it is. But like I said, there are parts that are of God's secret council.

Probably not the best place to go.
Adam and Eve weren’t perfect though so that’s kind of a place of hardship for need as well- they were good as in a baby is good but also having the capacity to sin correct?
They are good the same way a viper in a diaper is good?

Do you know what good is, especially hen God says it is good?

This according to my understanding would be the T- total depravity and I’m not sure I truly believe that we have an inability to love or understand the gospel message- can you give me that scripture?
There are tons of scripture supporting TD, but you said you didn't want scriptures, just opinions and thoughts.

I have no issue backing my beliefs with scripture as long as you don't either. But which avenue do you want to take here?
 

Grayecxm

Member
<sigh>
1) I've shown you Gen. 50:20,
2) I've shown you Isa. 10:5-7,
3) I've shown you Acts 4:27-28,

and you've treated it with disdain and insult, as if it was Kryptonite.

There's also this:

4) Psa. 37:23 The steps of a man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

5) Prov. 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

6) Prov. 20:24 A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?

7) Jer. 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.


But the point is that supposing you don't accept the above.... If you don't provide Scripture for your view, then the only answer we can give is, "I don't know". I believe the above are sufficient to prove the point.

Can you provide any Scripture to support your view? (And I'm sorry if you find my question insulting, I think it's a valid question.)



This post will always be there.
You can respond to one at a time, and then when you're ready to respond to the next one, this post will still be here to access.
Theo, I don’t see any of those scriptures saying what you are inferring. Let’s go one by one, maybe I’m overlooking it?
You want to start with Genesis 50:20?

all in good faith- I’m interested in seeing what you are seeing
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yes, I do believe it is. But like I said, there are parts that are of God's secret council.

Probably not the best place to go.

Yes, I think it was Luther who said we can go as far as Scripture goes, and where Scripture stops, we must stop as well.

I remember watching Stephen Hawking's biography, "A Brief History of Time" (I show it in my physics class), and they interviewed Stephen's sister Mary, who was talking about how they amused themselves as kids. Mary said they loved to argue about theology, since there were no right answers, and you could argue anything, and I was taken aback. Clearly you can only go as far as what Scripture says, and no further.

And it's only been in the past year that I've noticed how frequently people like Mormons and Arminians (3 in this very forum) pretty much eschew the Scriptures, and try to argue based on rationalization, self-serving analogies, and whatever they can make up.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Adam and Eve weren’t perfect though so that’s kind of a place of hardship for need as well- they were good as in a baby is good but also having the capacity to sin correct?
AV 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Eve acted on what the serpent said, and was deceived. Adam acting on feelings for Eve, and willfully and knowingly sinned.

AV Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Here is a list of noun synonyms for reference.

So who brought misery to this created earth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Grayecxm

Member
Yes, I do believe it is. But like I said, there are parts that are of God's secret council.

Probably not the best place to go.

They are good the same way a viper in a diaper is good?

Do you know what good is, especially hen God says it is good?


There are tons of scripture supporting TD, but you said you didn't want scriptures, just opinions and thoughts.

I have no issue backing my beliefs with scripture as long as you don't either. But which avenue do you want to take here?
I have never said I don’t want scripture- what I’ve repeatedly asked for is not cut and paste pages and pages of scripture but rather tell me where you found that idea and show me the exact place- I’m not seeing it like you see it and I’d like to know where the Bible supports each of the pillars of Calvinism. Total depravity- please show me. Bear with me if I cannot comment right away- kids are home but I’ll read when I can
 
Top