Evil

Grayecxm

Member
God has the right to Govern his Creation; an everlasting Dominion that endures through all generations of humanity. In the Garden of Eden God gave Man Dominion over the world as its Governor; likewise God is our Governor.
yes he does have the right- that is a point we can agree on.

When we welcome our own Dominion, we validate the Dominion of others; if God is real he’s your Governor. ~ The Theologian Jacob Arminius teaches us this, ‘My sentiments respecting the Providence of God are these: It is present with, presides over all things, according to their essences, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations, and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, still more; I don’t take away from the divine Providence governing even Sins themselves, whether we consider their commencement, their progress or their termination.’ ~ But you object, “How then is it even my fault when I Lie or steal??” The answer is found in the Bible; Jeremiah said that Judah sacrificed their children in a fire to a false Idol; but God said it never entered his Heart and Mind to cause them to Sin. And the Bible says when Joseph’s brothers sold him into Slavery that the brothers meant it for evil but God meant it for good, to save many lives…
I don’t find any conflict here- I’ll have to really chew on this but it seems to me that all that can be true while at the same time it being true that God didn’t “decree everything”
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
yes he does have the right- that is a point we can agree on.


I don’t find any conflict here- I’ll have to really chew on this but it seems to me that all that can be true while at the same time it being true that God didn’t “decree everything”
Please do chew on it...

Several years ago I started a Thread on the Old CARM Forums titled God's Providence. It dawned on me like a light shining in a dark place, as when the day dawns and the Sun rises; that Every Christian believes in God's Providence even when they do not believe in God's Decree. God's Providence is God's Decree in action...

Invite your husband; he would love this...
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
And that always seems to be the trick an odd one of them uses. Throw one down into a pit of presumptuous accusations and then take glee in seeing one spend their time to climb out it.

You mean like @Grayecxm did to me over and over and over again?

You should never have been told that you were attacking anybody.

Just like @Grayecxm never should have insulting me and lied about me over and over.
Seriously, if you're going to pretend to be "moderator" here, at least TRY to look objective.

People should give everyone here the benefit of the doubt that they're here to yes maybe have spirited debate

Good advice!
And maybe you and @Grayecxm LIKEWISE should give others (like me) that same "benefit of the doubt".

Again, if you're going to try to play "moderator" here (which I believe is against the rules), you should at least TRY to appear objective).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
wow… I’m honestly shocked reading the things you write. I just spent some time reading our exchanges from the beginning and I would encourage you to take a gander yourself. I think it all speaks for itself.

And I'm honestly shocked reading the things YOU write. I would encourage YOU to take a gander at YOURSELF. I think it all speaks for itself.

I literally stand by everything I have said.

You stand by all the LIES you said about me?
You stand by all the INSULTS you said about me?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I honestly don't know how you can live with yourself.

It’s crazy to me that you just “condemned” me with Gods authority in your statement. That’s absolutely heinous.

I condemned your ACTIONS.
And the fact that you take issue with me calling out your blatant MOCKERY is what's "absolutely heinous".

Do you think "mockery" is a fruit of the Spirit?
Why do you keep running away from this question, Simone?
Is it because you know it condemns you?
 

Grayecxm

Member
And I'm honestly shocked reading the things YOU write. I would encourage YOU to take a gander at YOURSELF. I think it all speaks for itself.
can you show me anything shocking that i have said?

You stand by all the LIES you said about me?
You stand by all the INSULTS you said about me?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I honestly don't know how you can live with yourself.

can you quote a lie? Please show me how I sinned against you at any level but specifically at a level that would have you questioning how I live with myself??


I condemned your ACTIONS.
And the fact that you take issue with me calling out your blatant MOCKERY is what's "absolutely heinous".

What specific actions did you condemn?
The fact that I found it funny that you told me your getting “REALLY tired” of me?
c’mon Theo- crack a craft beer and chill!



Do you think "mockery" is a fruit of the Spirit?
Why do you keep running away from this question, Simone?
Is it because you know it condemns you?
No… these are the fruits of the spirit:
Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self control

Can you say that you have possessed these attributes during this discussion?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
can you show me anything shocking that i have said?

Yes, I could, but you'd simply deny it.
Anyone who can read the thread can see it.
I have no desire to continue discussion with you, so I ask you to please stop harassing me.

can you quote a lie? Please show me how I sinned against you at any level but specifically at a level that would have you questioning how I live with myself??

Lying that I was allegedly "angry".
Lying that I allegedly "put words in [your] mouth" (which I never did).
Lying that I "only want a sound board and not an honest discussion".
Lying that I'm allegedly "taking this discussion so hard".

What specific actions did you condemn?

Go back and read it for yourself.
I'm not your secretary.
If you can't be bothered to pay attention in a discussion, that's not my problem.

The fact that I found it funny that you told me your getting “REALLY tired” of me?
c’mon Theo- crack a craft beer and chill!

I'm sorry that you consider theology to be nothing but a big joke.

No… these are the fruits of the spirit:
Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self control

So why did you MOCK me, since you realize it's not a fruit of the Spirit?
So why did you LIE about me (repeatedly), since you realize it's not a fruit of the Spirit?

Can you say that you have possessed these attributes during this discussion?

I never mocked you.
I simply did my best to have a helpful and respectful discussion with you.
And you threw it in my face and treated me like crap.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
But sadly, you are not. You simply defend your outrageous behaviour.
 

Grayecxm

Member
Yes, I could, but you'd simply deny it.
please show

Anyone who can read the thread can see it.
I have no desire to continue discussion with you, so I ask you to please stop harassing me.
you’ve falsely accused me multiple times of having erroneous intentions. Nobody is harassing you- just holding you accountable for your words.

Lying that I was allegedly "angry".
Go back and read what was written
I said you “seem to be a hostile type of person” that’s an opinion based on your previous response accusing me of “playing games with you “ and also “insulting” you. (That’s on page 2)
Lying that I allegedly "put words in [your] mouth" (which I never did).
You said: ”Do you REALLY want to take the position that God was not in control of the crucifixion”

But I didn’t take that position.

saying “please don’t put words in my mouth” is hardly a lie but probably more accurately a request.


Lying that I "only want a sound board and not an honest discussion".

Again Theo, my words: “it seems to me that you are looking for a soundboard”

youwould do well to grasp the difference between lies and opinions

Lying that I'm allegedly "taking this discussion so hard".

I’m sorry but this made me laugh out loud

I apologize for having an opinion that you are taking this hard

Go back and read it for yourself.
I'm not your secretary.
If you can't be bothered to pay attention in a discussion, that's not my problem.



I'm sorry that you consider theology to be nothing but a big joke.
whoa whoa whoa… I don’t appreciate that accusation. I don’t think theology is a big joke

So why did you MOCK me, since you realize it's not a fruit of the Spirit?
So why did you LIE about me (repeatedly), since you realize it's not a fruit of the Spirit?



I never mocked you.
I simply did my best to have a helpful and respectful discussion with you.
And you threw it on my face and treated me like crap.
Holy smokes Batman, I missed that part!?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You said: ”Do you REALLY want to take the position that God was not in control of the crucifixion”

But I didn’t take that position.

Great.
So you obviously don't understand the difference between a QUESTION and an ASSERTION.

saying “please don’t put words in my mouth” is hardly a lie but probably more accurately a request.

There was NO REASON for the "request", since I *NEVER* put any "words in [your] mouth".

Again Theo, my words: “it seems to me that you are looking for a soundboard”

youwould do well to grasp the difference between lies and opinions

Okay, you go with that.
When you meet your Creator, face to face, and He asks you why you lied about me, and you say, "I didn't lie, I was just giving my opinion", let's see if he accepts that bankrupt excuse.

He won't.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
But all you do is try to defend your sins.
Pathetic.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
yes he does have the right- that is a point we can agree on.


I don’t find any conflict here- I’ll have to really chew on this but it seems to me that all that can be true while at the same time it being true that God didn’t “decree everything”
Here is your reward; as a Calvinist I agree, and here's why...

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4
1
Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

This is a Calvinist's Confession of Faith. The highlighted essentially says that the Liberty of the Will is Established. Ask your husband what he thinks about that. Of course, the Freedom of our Wills is still governed by Providence; so don't beat him over the head with it, there are qualifiers...
 

Grayecxm

Member
Glad we are past that now…

🙌
Here is your reward; as a Calvinist I agree, and here's why...

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4
1
Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

This is a Calvinist's Confession of Faith. The highlighted essentially says that the Liberty of the Will is Established. Ask your husband what he thinks about that. Of course, the Freedom of our Wills is still governed by Providence; so don't beat him over the head with it, there are qualifiers...

how far does the “liberty of the will” go?

How is there liberty of the will when God wills everything- that’s the part that doesn’t seem to shake out to me…

it feels a bit like a web of confusing statements- please don’t take that personal rev, just seems overly complicated to me.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Glad we are past that now…

🙌


how far does the “liberty of the will” go?

How is there liberty of the will when God wills everything- that’s the part that doesn’t seem to shake out to me…

it feels a bit like a web of confusing statements- please don’t take that personal rev, just seems overly complicated to me.
Ah; now that's the Trillion Dollar question! The following is an excerpt from Arminius on the Providence of God; he says our Will and God's Providence flow Concurrently...

"Fourthly. The immediate concurrence itself of God with the act of sin."

God's Providence and your providence flow Concurrently without mixing. This means that the Will of God and the Will of Man is the same Will; IE Joseph's brothers and God both 'Meant' that Joseph be sold into Slavery. God's Will and the Brother's Wills didn't Mix, although they were the same Will for Joseph; because God and the Brothers had two different Meanings for the same Act of Evil. God Meant it; but for Good...

Is there a great example for God's Will and Man's Will flowing Concurrently without Mixing? Yes there is!

Jesus Christ himself is THE example, because he is God and Man in One. The term used to describe the Union of God and Man in Christ is The Hypostatic Union. An example of this is a Marriage; the Husband shall leave his parents and Cleave to his wife, the two become one. As Christians we can understand how the two become one without mixing. Jesus and the Logos of God are one but without Mixing too; inseparable. How can the two be inseparable without Mixing?? But that's what we believe. Phillipians says that the Logos of God suppressed the expression of his Deity in order to live on the level of an Unfallen Adam; this means God and Man in Christ are functional equals; and Christ's Human Will was never overpowered by God's Will. Christ and God Willed the same exact thing all the time, this is our example of God's Providence Governing our Will without it trumping our Will...

Jesus asked God to take away the Cup of Wrath he was about to go through but said, "Not my Will but your Will be done". This was Jesus the Man coming close to having a different Will than God had for him; this is the closest that Jesus ever came to Falling like Adam did. But Christ Persevered and chose the Evil that God created, the Evil of the Cross; where God made peace...
 
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Grayecxm

Member
I guess there’s also the issue with words- in this case, what does “free” mean?
Are we free in the sense of being able to make a decision that was not directly or indirectly scripted ?

the definition of freedom from Webster's Third New International Dictionary gives this definition:
"the absence of antecedent causal determination of human decisions."
 

civic

Well-known member
I guess there’s also the issue with words- in this case, what does “free” mean?
Are we free in the sense of being able to make a decision that was not directly or indirectly scripted ?

the definition of freedom from Webster's Third New International Dictionary gives this definition:
"the absence of antecedent causal determination of human decisions."
What does slave mean ?
What does dead mean ?
What does no one mean, none with no exceptions ?

Answer those and free becomes clear as to its meaning
 

Grayecxm

Member
Ah; now that's the Trillion Dollar question! The following is an excerpt from Arminius on the Providence of God; he says our Will and God's Will flow Concurrently...

Fourthly. The immediate concurrence itself of God with the act of sin.

God's Providence and your providence flow Concurrently without mixing. This means that the Will of God and the Will of Man is the same Will;
Can you show me this is the Bible? The will of God and the will of man being the same will?

IE Joseph's brothers and God 'Meant' that Joseph be sold into Slavery. God's Will and the Brother's Wills didn't Mix, though they were the same Will; because God and the Brothers had two different Meanings for the same Act of Evil. God Meant it; but for Good...
This would be an example of God using evil to work his good purpose. This doesn’t necessitate that God decrees everything
Is there a great example for God's Will and Man's Will flowing Concurrently without Mixing? Yes there is!

Jesus Christ himself is THE example, because he is God and Man in One. The term used to describe the Union of God and Man in Christ is The Hypostatic Union. An example of this is a Marriage; the Husband shall leave his parents and Cleave to his wife, the two become one. As Christians we can understand how the two become one without mixing. Jesus and the Logos of God are one but without Mixing too; inseparable. How can the two be inseparable without Mixing?? But that's what we believe. Phillipians says that the Logos of God suppressed the expression of his Deity in order to live on the level of an Unfallen Adam; this means God and Man in Christ are equals; and Christ's Human Will was never overpowered by God's Will. Christ and God Willed the same exact thing all the time, this is our example of God's Providence Governing our Will without it trumping our Will...
It doesn’t sit well to say that “God and man are equal in Christ”
Christ humbly submitted- “not my will but the fathers will “
I need to chew on this a bit more
Jesus asked God to take away the Cup of Wrath he was about to go through but said, "Not my Will but your Will be done". This was Jesus the Man coming close to having a different Will than God had for him; this is the closest that Jesus ever came to Falling like Adam did. But Christ Persevered and chose the Evil that God created; the Evil of the Cross...
Amen but I don’t see the decrees of God here Rev.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I guess there’s also the issue with words- in this case, what does “free” mean?
Are we free in the sense of being able to make a decision that was not directly or indirectly scripted ?

the definition of freedom from Webster's Third New International Dictionary gives this definition:
"the absence of antecedent causal determination of human decisions."

The term "free" in Scripture is not the English word, "free", it is the Greek word, "ελευθεροω" ("eleutheroO"), and so "Webster's Third New International Dictionary will be of little help, since Webster's doesn't define Greek terms.

Again, from BDAG:

ἐλευθερόω fut. ἐλευθερώσω; 1 aor. ἠλευθέρωσα; pf. inf. ἠλευθερωκέναι (Just., D. 41, 1). Pass.: 1 fut. ἐλευθερωθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἠλευθερώθην; pf. pass. ἠλευθέρωμαι (s. ἐλεύθερος; Aeschyl., Hdt.+) to cause someone to be freed from domination, free, set free,

It is not an absolute term, but a relative term. We are set free FROM something in particular, not universally freed from everything.

The best way to understand Greek terms is to study them in their CONTEXT:

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
.
set free from:become slaves of:
unregeneratedrighteousnesssin
regeneratedsinrighteousness
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Can you show me this is the Bible? The will of God and the will of man being the same will?


This would be an example of God using evil too work his God purpose. This doesn’t necessitate that God decrees the

It doesn’t sit well to say that “God and man are equal in Christ”
Christ humbly submitted- “not my will but the fathers will “
I need to chew on this a bit more

Amen but I don’t see the decrees of God here Rev.
Fair enough; this is highly Theological...

The footnotes in the 2nd LBCF Ch 3, included...

Acts 4:27-28; Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

John 19:11; Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."


Thanks for chewing on this. Are you interested in talking to your husband about these things?
 
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Grayecxm

Member
What does slave mean ?
What does dead mean ?
What does no one mean, none with no exceptions ?

Answer those and free becomes clear as to its meaning
There are literal definitions and figurative definitions and theology can turn on a definition.

for example “dead” - comes from the word nekros and is a noun that literally means dead, but when used figuratively it is a very fluid term- interestingly it does not speak to inability.

If we are arguing how free man is, it would be really good to ensure we’re both talking about the same definition as well
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
for example “dead” - comes from the word nekros and is a noun that literally means dead,

You refer to the Greek.
Are you fluent in Koine Greek, or simply trying to impress people?

but when used figuratively it is a very fluid term- interestingly it does not speak to inability.

It's funny.... Non-Calvinists always tell us what "dead in sin" DOESN'T mean, but they can never tell us what it actually DOES mean.
 

civic

Well-known member
There are literal definitions and figurative definitions and theology can turn on a definition.

for example “dead” - comes from the word nekros and is a noun that literally means dead, but when used figuratively it is a very fluid term- interestingly it does not speak to inability.

If we are arguing how free man is, it would be really good to ensure we’re both talking about the same definition as well
Nekros figuratively means not able to respond to any impulses or stimuli .


nekros: dead

Original Word:
νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.



3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

next……
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Nekros figuratively means not able to respond to any impulses or stimuli .


nekros: dead

Original Word:
νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

Here is BDAG's definition:

νεκρός, ά, όν
A.
as adj. (perh. as early as Hom., certainly Pind.; in Ath. only R. title)
1. pert. to being in a state of loss of life, dead, of pers.:
2. pert. to being so morally or spirtually deficient as to be in effect dead, dead, fig. ext. of 1
a. of pers. [...] Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13.
b. of things ν. ἔργα dead works that cannot bring eternal life
3. pert. to having never been alive and lacking capacity for life, dead, lifeless
B. as subst.
1. one who is no longer physically alive, dead person, a dead body, a corpse, lit.
2. one who is so spiritually obtuse as to be in effect dead, dead
 
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