Experiential Theology

1 Co. 2:4-5, “For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of POWER.”

Experiential theology is experiencing the power of the Holy Spirit who miraculously changes our hearts. That is called conversion and is what makes us a NEW creation in Christ. (Jn 1:12-13) and gives us birth into the family of God.

But unfortunately, there are many professed teachers and pastors today who deny that receiving the Holy Spirit is an experience because they see deceiving spirits in many professed Christians, then automatically deny that the Holy Spirit is also an experience. This is not only false, it’s dangerous as I will explain. The real underlying reason why they deny that receiving the Holy Spirit is experiential is because, sadly, they themselves have never experienced the power of the Holy Spirit.

Here is how you differentiate deceiving spirits from the Holy Spirit: Deceiving spirits lead people AWAY from the Bible and into delusions of their minds. They manifest themselves in ways that are the OPPOSITE of the Holy Spirit, in seizures, convulsions, shrieks, babbling (which they sadly call tongues), unbiblical teachings, going beyond what is written and false visions and voices, etc. They can also mimic the Holy Spirit by presenting a false sense of love and humility, or even predicting the future accurately or making true statements but with a deviant motive, such as the woman in Acts 16. These “Jesus” cults (which include Mormons and JW’s) are examples of deceiving spirits and there are hundreds, possibly thousands of them all around the world. The final anti-Christ will also manifest some or all of the above.

The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is also experiential POWER but it presents the opposite; He leads us INTO the Bible because we are receiving the WORD in us when we receive the Holy Spirit. (1 Jn 2:14, Jn 14:20). When we receive the Holy Spirit we are receiving JESUS inside of us (2 Co. 13:5) and Jesus IS the WORD (Jn 1:1-2, Jn 1:14). That’s how the Word becomes written on our HEARTS, and doesn’t just remain outside of us. (Heb. 10:16-17).

The Word is as alive as Father, Son and Holy Spirit are (Heb. 4:12) so we receive ALL THREE members of the trinity when we receive the Holy Spirit because those three are ONE. (Jn 1:1-2, Jn 14:20, Rom. 8:9, Phil. 2:13, 2 Co. 13:5). The Holy Spirit also gives us peace, joy, FAITH (1 Co. 2:14), love, patience, etc. (Gal. 5:22-24) Miracles, and tongues are also from the Holy Spirit but are not as needed today as in the 1st century since we now have the written word in the NT. The Holy Spirit changes our hearts with light and/or a lifting of sin, an opening of our eyes, a feeling of peace and joy that we’d never experienced before, etc.

1 Co. 2:4-5, “ My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the SPIRIT'S power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.”

This is a very important verse because too many professed pastors replace the Spirit’s power with college degrees which show no power from God since even unbelievers receive college degrees. Anyone can acquire book knowledge of ANYTHING, but understanding the Bible only comes from the Holy Spirit. 1 Co. 2:14. A demonstration of the Spirit’s power isn’t just speaking in tongues, healing the sick or casting out demons, it also comes in the form of knowledge given by the Spirit to the believer. As 1 Co. 12;1-31 and Rom. 12:4-8 say, not all Christians are given the SAME gifts. God determines which gifts he gives to us individually because they’re used for HIS purposes at HIS timing.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11, “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit…”
This is further demonstrated in Acts 4:13,

“When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.”

Gaining knowledge of God WITHOUT going to school shows the POWER from God to impart knowledge in his humble, mostly unwise servants as is also explained in 1 Co. 1:26-29. That’s why God chose the weak, foolish, lowly and despised people of the world to show HIS power inside the believer, not the intelligence of man’s “wisdom”:

1 Co. 1:27-29, “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.”

This is why Jesus tells us in Mt. 11:25 that God has HIDDEN the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to little children; to SHAME the wise as Jesus himself did with the OT teachers, scholars, scribes and Pharisees. He chose illiterate fishermen, tax collectors, prostitutes, the lowly and despised things of this world to shame the wise and strong.

This does not mean that there are not men of understanding who learn about the Bible in school, but seminary degrees are NOT evidence that someone is born again.. which is also demonstrated by the MANY false teachings preached by seminary graduates throughout the denominations. While there’s nothing wrong with acquiring knowledge from humans outside the Bible or even learning about the customs and era of ancient israel, but if one is NOT born again, that knowledge will be incorrectly applied to the Bible, nor can it make him understand the Bible. There is a difference between learning from humans and learning from God Himself through the Holy Spirit.

Jn 6;45, “For it is written in the Prophets, ‘they will be taught by GOD.”
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
This does not mean that there are not men of understanding who learn about the Bible in school, but seminary degrees are NOT evidence that someone is born again..
or understanding what 'born again' [born from above] actually means
which is also demonstrated by the MANY false teachings preached by seminary graduates throughout the denominations.
that is why we have a Church 'universal' to guide us, as the HS guides Christ's Church
but if one is NOT born again,
baptized
that knowledge will be incorrectly applied to the Bible, nor can it make him understand the Bible.
What would you do or who would you rely on if you were a new Christian in AD 42?
 
or understanding what 'born again' [born from above] actually means

that is why we have a Church 'universal' to guide us, as the HS guides Christ's Church

baptized

What would you do or who would you rely on if you were a new Christian in AD 42?
Arch, Scripture explains what it means to be born again in Jn 14:20 when talking about the Holy Spirit, "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you."

If Jesus lived inside Catholics then they wouldn't need to claim that the wafer they eat every week which leaves the body shortly after, is Jesus.


Secondly, the Catholics church tortured and killed MILLIONS in the Name of Christ which is breaking the commandment "Do not kill." Jesus tells us to LOVE our enemies and let the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest which Catholics are disobeying too.

Thirdly, Catholics also sell the kingdom of heaven for money which they call "indulgences"which are still practiced today. But Peter REBUKED Simon the sorcer in Acts 8:9-24 for also trying to buy the kingdom of God with money. It's called SORCERY.

Fourthly the second Commandement TELLS us NOT to carve any idol of anything in heaven (which would include Father and Son as well as the spirits who are now in heaven). in fact, Catholics have OMITTED the 2nd Commandment because of their contempt for God. So they KNOW they're BREAKING that Commandment or they wouldn't try to erase it. But sadly for Catholics, God already SPOKE the TEN Commandments so they can never erase God's words. You cannot UNDO what God has ordained.

Dt. 4:15-18 also tells us NOT to carve an image of even a man or a woman. Yet Catholics MAKE images of BOTH those things and also bow down and pray to them.There are SO MANY verses in the OT about idolatry, that they're WAY TOO numerous to list.

And lastly, 1 Co. 6:9-10 tells us that ALL UNREPENTANT idolaters will NOT enter heaven. Rev. 21:8 also says the same thing.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg of the verses that Catholics DISOBEY. So they are NOT the church. They've made up their own religion which now includes homosexuality since the pope has recently supported civil marriage between two men or two women.
 
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Also, if you want to see the men that Catholics call their "HOLY Fathers (which Jesus also tells us not to do in Mt. 23;9), then here's just a sample of the evils and sins that they committed in the name of Christ. As you can see, some popes murderd and hated other popes which proves that they're not apostles since true apostles don't hate or kill other apostles. These come from the book "A dark History of the Popes" by Brenda Ralph Lewis:

Pope Benedict V fled to Constantinople in 964 because he seduced a girl and made off with the papal treasury. He was finally killed by a jealous husband.

Pope John XII was also murdered by a jealous husband who found him in bed with his wife.

Pope Boniface Vlll was accused of murdering Pope Benedict VI

Popes Benedict IX and Sylvester III were deposed and Pope Gregory VI was persuaded to resign.

Sergius III had reputedly ordered the murder of his two immediate predecessors, Leo V and Christopher, and allegedly fathered an illegitimate son who later became pope (John XI), his pontificate has been variously described as "dismal and disgraceful",[2] and "efficient and ruthless".

“Pope John VIII was murdered in 882 a.d. but only after he had failed to die by poison, instead,he was battered to death by his killers.”

Pope Benedict IX was described as 'feasting on immorality and a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest.' He was also accused of many 'vile adulteries and murders.' A later pope, Victor III, charged him with rapes, murders and other unspeakable acts. Benedict's life was 'so vile, Pope Victor continued, 'so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it.' For good measure, Benedict was also indicted for homosexuality and bestiality." ("A Dark History of the Popes" by Brenda Ralph Lewis).

Pope Formosus who was pope from 891-896 a.d was dug up from his grave and his corpse put on trial because his political enemies wanted to discredit him.

Pope John X was the lover of Marozia’s mother, Theodora. She made him pope in 914 a.d but he was hardly grateful; instead he deserted her and went off with a younger woman. This happened in the era called, “The Rule of the Harlots” when popes were “elected’ by seduction and bribery.

"Pope John XII was so thoroughly dissolute it was rumored that prayers were offered up up in monasteries begging God to grant him a speedy death. There seemed to be no sin that John XII did not-or would-not commit. He ran a brothel at the church of St, John Lateran where he put one of his own lovers, Marcia in charge. He slept with his father's mistress and his own mother, He took golden chalises from St. Peter's church to reward his lovers after nights of passion. He blinded one cardinal and castrated another, causing his death. Pilgrims who came to Rome risked losing their offerings they made to the Church when pope purloined to use in gambling sessions. At these sessions, John XII used to call on pagan gods and goddesses to grant him luck with the throw of the dice." ("A Dark History of the Popes" pg. 31).

"Pope Sergius III was once described as the source of 'infinite abomination amongst women,' and 'the slave of every vice and the most wicked of men'. His personal as well as public life as pope was said to be one long procession of scandal and decadence, which included the murder of one, and possibly two popes. It appears that Sergius ordered the murders of both Pope Leo V and the antipope, Christopher, who were strangled in prison in 904 a.d. That done, the way was cleared for Sergius to become pope himself. Three years later Pope Sergius acquired a mistress, Marovia, whose mother Theodora, 'gave her to him' when she as only 15 years old. Sergius was 30 years her senior, but it seems he hd lusted after her for 9 years, ever since they met at the notorious cadaver synod." (A Dark History of the Popes" by Brenda Ralph Lewis).

Continuing on with how popes were "elected", "Alberic, of Lombardy, was born a trouble-maker, reared in a family skilled in the dark arts of intrigue, murder, adultery and simony (buying and selling ecclesiastical pardons) and almost every other profanity known to decadence....adept at making popes, having put seven members of his family on the Throne of St. Peter after seizing control of papal elections." "....Over the next 22 years, before his death at age 43 in 954 a.d., Alberic appointed 4 popes. And on his deathbed he nominated his own illegitimate son, Octavian, aged 16 as their successor. Octavian became pope in 955 a.d., again taking the name of John XII, and was a complete and utter catastrophe." (A dark History of the Popes" pg. 24-29). Sidenote, thrones are for kings and Peter was not a king nor would he ever have accepted such a title and certainly not sat in a throne if one had been offered him!
 

Hawkeye

Active member
I only had one question. No thoughts on it?
Arch....you are correct. The Greek does not say....."born Again". It says "Born from above".

I guess the next step is......what exactly does that mean?

Young's Literal Translation [John 3:3] Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;’

Well....it obviously does not mean what many folks have been led to believe. It really does say...."Born from above".

Those participating in the first resurrection will indeed be born from above;

[John 5:28-29] Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

[Romans 8:29] because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

Yeshua was born from above after his resurrection....but prior to that He was not born again.....but begotten of the Spirit:

[John 3:16] for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

You would think that of anyone who would qualify under the commonly accepted parameters of the misguided Mainstream Church.....The Messiah would have qualified to be "Born Again", as He pursued His ministry on Earth. He was not. He was begotten of the Spirit at that point......and born from above as He rose from the dead.....as shall we.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
1 Co. 2:4-5, “For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of POWER.”

Experiential theology is experiencing the power of the Holy Spirit who miraculously changes our hearts. That is called conversion and is what makes us a NEW creation in Christ. (Jn 1:12-13) and gives us birth into the family of God.

But unfortunately, there are many professed teachers and pastors today who deny that receiving the Holy Spirit is an experience because they see deceiving spirits in many professed Christians, then automatically deny that the Holy Spirit is also an experience. This is not only false, it’s dangerous as I will explain. The real underlying reason why they deny that receiving the Holy Spirit is experiential is because, sadly, they themselves have never experienced the power of the Holy Spirit.

Here is how you differentiate deceiving spirits from the Holy Spirit: Deceiving spirits lead people AWAY from the Bible and into delusions of their minds. They manifest themselves in ways that are the OPPOSITE of the Holy Spirit, in seizures, convulsions, shrieks, babbling (which they sadly call tongues), unbiblical teachings, going beyond what is written and false visions and voices, etc. They can also mimic the Holy Spirit by presenting a false sense of love and humility, or even predicting the future accurately or making true statements but with a deviant motive, such as the woman in Acts 16. These “Jesus” cults (which include Mormons and JW’s) are examples of deceiving spirits and there are hundreds, possibly thousands of them all around the world. The final anti-Christ will also manifest some or all of the above.

The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is also experiential POWER but it presents the opposite; He leads us INTO the Bible because we are receiving the WORD in us when we receive the Holy Spirit. (1 Jn 2:14, Jn 14:20). When we receive the Holy Spirit we are receiving JESUS inside of us (2 Co. 13:5) and Jesus IS the WORD (Jn 1:1-2, Jn 1:14). That’s how the Word becomes written on our HEARTS, and doesn’t just remain outside of us. (Heb. 10:16-17).

The Word is as alive as Father, Son and Holy Spirit are (Heb. 4:12) so we receive ALL THREE members of the trinity when we receive the Holy Spirit because those three are ONE. (Jn 1:1-2, Jn 14:20, Rom. 8:9, Phil. 2:13, 2 Co. 13:5). The Holy Spirit also gives us peace, joy, FAITH (1 Co. 2:14), love, patience, etc. (Gal. 5:22-24) Miracles, and tongues are also from the Holy Spirit but are not as needed today as in the 1st century since we now have the written word in the NT. The Holy Spirit changes our hearts with light and/or a lifting of sin, an opening of our eyes, a feeling of peace and joy that we’d never experienced before, etc.

1 Co. 2:4-5, “ My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the SPIRIT'S power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.”

This is a very important verse because too many professed pastors replace the Spirit’s power with college degrees which show no power from God since even unbelievers receive college degrees. Anyone can acquire book knowledge of ANYTHING, but understanding the Bible only comes from the Holy Spirit. 1 Co. 2:14. A demonstration of the Spirit’s power isn’t just speaking in tongues, healing the sick or casting out demons, it also comes in the form of knowledge given by the Spirit to the believer. As 1 Co. 12;1-31 and Rom. 12:4-8 say, not all Christians are given the SAME gifts. God determines which gifts he gives to us individually because they’re used for HIS purposes at HIS timing.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11, “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit…”
This is further demonstrated in Acts 4:13,

“When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.”

Gaining knowledge of God WITHOUT going to school shows the POWER from God to impart knowledge in his humble, mostly unwise servants as is also explained in 1 Co. 1:26-29. That’s why God chose the weak, foolish, lowly and despised people of the world to show HIS power inside the believer, not the intelligence of man’s “wisdom”:

1 Co. 1:27-29, “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.”

This is why Jesus tells us in Mt. 11:25 that God has HIDDEN the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to little children; to SHAME the wise as Jesus himself did with the OT teachers, scholars, scribes and Pharisees. He chose illiterate fishermen, tax collectors, prostitutes, the lowly and despised things of this world to shame the wise and strong.

This does not mean that there are not men of understanding who learn about the Bible in school, but seminary degrees are NOT evidence that someone is born again.. which is also demonstrated by the MANY false teachings preached by seminary graduates throughout the denominations. While there’s nothing wrong with acquiring knowledge from humans outside the Bible or even learning about the customs and era of ancient israel, but if one is NOT born again, that knowledge will be incorrectly applied to the Bible, nor can it make him understand the Bible. There is a difference between learning from humans and learning from God Himself through the Holy Spirit.

Jn 6;45, “For it is written in the Prophets, ‘they will be taught by GOD.”
Your writing is compelling and provocative. I will be watching for your posts from now on; it’s exhilarating to read such fearless prose.

That being said, there are two matters that jump off the page, for me anyway. 1) I hope your mention of the Trinity was simply a matter of mathematics and not an endorsement of that odious, heretical doctrine and 2) as others have pointed out, “born again” is an erroneous translation which would correctly read as “born from above”. The distinction is much more than a matter of semantics.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
Your writing is compelling and provocative. I will be watching for your posts from now on; it’s exhilarating to read such fearless prose.

That being said, there are two matters that jump off the page, for me anyway. 1) I hope your mention of the Trinity was simply a matter of mathematics and not an endorsement of that odious, heretical doctrine and 2) as others have pointed out, “born again” is an erroneous translation which would correctly read as “born from above”. The distinction is much more than a matter of semantics.
I don't recall mentioning the Trinity. Can you tell me where you saw that?

Forget it....I just noticed that post was not from me. DUH........
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Arch....you are correct. The Greek does not say....."born Again". It says "Born from above".

I guess the next step is......what exactly does that mean?
Justin Martyr

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Arch....you are correct. The Greek does not say....."born Again". It says "Born from above".

If you actually do your homework, you will find it actually isn't an either/or thing. Jesus teaches that a man who has been born must be born again, born a second time.

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?

Also:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
1 Peter 1:3

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of REgeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5


I guess the next step is......what exactly does that mean?

Young's Literal Translation [John 3:3] Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;’

Well....it obviously does not mean what many folks have been led to believe. It really does say...."Born from above".

Those participating in the first resurrection will indeed be born from above;

[John 5:28-29] Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

[Romans 8:29] because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

Yeshua was born from above after his resurrection....but prior to that He was not born again.....but begotten of the Spirit:

[John 3:16] for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

You would think that of anyone who would qualify under the commonly accepted parameters of the misguided Mainstream Church.....The Messiah would have qualified to be "Born Again", as He pursued His ministry on Earth. He was not. He was begotten of the Spirit at that point......and born from above as He rose from the dead.....as shall we.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
1 Peter 1:3
The literal Greek does not support the position that you have taken.

Young's Literal Translation [I Peter 1:3]

Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,

Being born and being begotten are two separate events. When the egg is fertilized........a baby is begotten. Nine moths later....they are born. Two different Greek words.

Your Savior was begotten by His Father:

Young's...............

[John 3:16] for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Even the King James got this one right...........

{3:16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Human beings are not "Born Again". Resurrected human beings will be (born again)....from above.

 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The literal Greek does not support the position that you have taken.

It isn't a "position." Go do your homework please

Young's Literal Translation [I Peter 1:3]

Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,

Being born and being begotten are two separate events. When the egg is fertilized........a baby is begotten. Nine moths later....they are born. Two different Greek words.

You don't know what you are talking about.

The Greek word translated into English as "begotten" is gennao.
The Greek word translated into English as "born" is gennao.


Your Savior was begotten by His Father:

Young's...............

[John 3:16] for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Mongenes is a different question.

Even the King James got this one right...........

{3:16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Human beings are not "Born Again". Resurrected human beings will be (born again)....from above.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
If you actually do your homework, you will find it actually isn't an either/or thing. Jesus teaches that a man who has been born must be born again, born a second time.

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?
Because Nicodemus did not understand that Yeshua was speaking of the resurrection .......and I have not said that folks will not be born again. My only dispute with you (and the mainstream church) ....is when!
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
It isn't a "position." Go do your homework please



You don't know what you are talking about.

The Greek word translated into English as "begotten" is gennao.
The Greek word translated into English as "born" is gennao.

Because Nicodemus did not understand that Yeshua was speaking of the resurrection .......and I have not said that folks will not be born again. My only dispute with you (and the mainstream church) ....is when!

Looks like you need to go and read John's first letter again.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Instead.........why don't you just instruct me? I'm open minded; I've been wrong before about many things; I'm willing to listen.....and perhaps learn something new.

John routinely refers to those who have been born/begotten of God. They

If you actually want to know truth, read this passage more carefully than most others do:

"He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the son of God.” John 1

3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten FROM ABOVE he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be begotten when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is begotten of the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be begotten from above.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is begotten of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who DESCENDED from heaven: the son of man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” 22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24 for John had not yet been thrown into prison. 25 Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John’s disciples with a Jew about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.” 27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent ahead of Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 “He who comes FROM ABOVE is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers, all the children of God who originate in heaven with God since all of them, including Jesus, are those who are born/begotten of God by the Spirit of God.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
John routinely refers to those who have been born/begotten of God. They

If you actually want to know truth, read this passage more carefully than most others do:
I asked you to instruct me and all you can do is tell me to read the passage again?

I've been reading this passage since Eisenhower was President....and very thoroughly.....many times I might add.
"He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the son of God.” John 1

3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten FROM ABOVE he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be begotten when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is begotten of the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be begotten from above.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is begotten of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who DESCENDED from heaven: the son of man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” 22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24 for John had not yet been thrown into prison. 25 Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John’s disciples with a Jew about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.” 27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent ahead of Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 “He who comes FROM ABOVE is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
Exactly....what was it I was to learn from this passage? Please instruct me.
Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers, all the children of God who originate in heaven with God since all of them, including Jesus, are those who are born/begotten of God by the Spirit of God.
Exactly.........Yeshua was the first born of many to come at the resurrection.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I asked you to instruct me and all you can do is tell me to read the passage again?

I've been reading this passage since Eisenhower was President....and very thoroughly.....many times I might add.

Exactly....what was it I was to learn from this passage? Please instruct me.

Exactly.........Yeshua was the first born of many to come at the resurrection.
Sigh, let me make it even easier and we'll see if the light goes on......

Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten FROM ABOVE he cannot see the kingdom of God..... ‘You must be begotten FROM ABOVE.... 31 “He who comes FROM ABOVE is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
Sigh, let me make it even easier and we'll see if the light goes on......

I must be boring you. Sorry.............
Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten FROM ABOVE he cannot see the kingdom of God..... ‘You must be begotten FROM ABOVE.... 31 “He who comes FROM ABOVE is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
Why don't you put it in your own words and we'll see if it lines up with the Greek literal (which for the most part is not used in many denominations).
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I must be boring you. Sorry.............

Why don't you put it in your own words and we'll see if it lines up with the Greek literal (which for the most part is not used in many denominations).

How could it be more clear?

3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten FROM ABOVE he cannot see the kingdom of God.....
31 “He who comes FROM ABOVE is over all
 
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