Experiential Theology

[Hawkeye]

How could it be more clear?

3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten FROM ABOVE he cannot see the kingdom of God.....
31 “He who comes FROM ABOVE is over all

O.K. I'll put it in my own words.......

Nicodemus was a wise Pharisee (member of the ruling council) thoroughly trained in the Law of the Hebrews. He knew that Yeshua was a special teacher and of course Yeshua already knew what he was to ask.

Yeshua explained that in order to see the Kingdom of Yahweh he must be born from above.

Now Nicodemus did not comprehend what Yeshua had said as the word "Born" implicated entering his mother's womb again for the process....and he knew that was not possible....so he questioned the Savior some more. He wanted to know how he (as an old man) could be born again?

Yeshua explained that "unless Man is born of water.....and the spirit (notice two different births announced by Yeshua) he can not enter Yahweh's Kingdom." He said....."flesh give birth to flesh....but spirit give birth to spirit.....so don't be surprised that I say you must be born from above."

Now....this is crucial to understanding;

Yeshua said, "You cannot see the wind....it blows where it blows. You can hear it.....but you cannot tell where it comes from....or where it is going. So it is the same with everyone born of the Spirit!"

Again.....Nicodemus says....."How can this be"? He still did not understand.....and was rebuked by Yeshua for being a teacher of Hebrew Law.....and still not getting it.

[Romans 8:29] because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

Yeshua WAS TO BE the first born. Was He? Of course.....at His resurrection He was born again of the spirit as had been explained to Nicodemus.

[I Corinthians 15:20-23] And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead — the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in his presence,

Notice that this is the resurrection chapter (context is important)

 

[Hawkeye]

Now....this is crucial to understanding;

Yeshua said, "You cannot see the wind....it blows where it blows. You can hear it.....but you cannot tell where it comes from....or where it is going. So it is the same with everyone born of the Spirit!"

Do you know anyone claiming to be born again that's invisible?

 

[Arch Stanton]

Human beings are not "Born Again". Resurrected human beings will be (born again)....from above.

Cyprian​

[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).

 

[Arch Stanton]

I'm open minded; I've been wrong before about many things; I'm willing to listen

post 9 and ....

Ambrose of Milan​

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.... "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]).

.....and perhaps learn something new.

Augustine​

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[Hawkeye]

You are quoting "Church Fathers" in defense of whatever your position is........

Try quoting literal Greek scripture and see if you arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[Arch Stanton]

You are quoting "Church Fathers" in defense of whatever your position is........

Try quoting literal Greek scripture and see if you arrive at the same conclusion.

Do you not find it interesting that the early church sees 'born again' in a different light? Justin Martyr understands ancient Greek.

 

[Hawkeye]

Do you not find it interesting that the early church sees 'born again' in a different light? Justin Martyr understands ancient Greek.

I'm sure that Justin knew Greek very well (Latin also). It's too bad the folks that translated him.....didn't.

I don't believe the "Early Church" saw it any differently than I do.

Now....the original Catholic Church (which came much later) .....I'm not sure. They probably slanted everything to conform to their pagan biases.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Now....the original Catholic Church (which came much later)

Why do you think the Catholic Church came much later than the time of Christ and the Apostles?

 

[Hawkeye]

Why do you think the Catholic Church came much later than the time of Christ and the Apostles?

Because the theology of the early Catholic church was nothing similar to that of the first century "Biblical" church.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Because the theology of the early Catholic church was nothing similar to that of the first century "Biblical" church.

Baptism, Eucharist, Primacy of Peter = early church

 

[Hawkeye]

Baptism, Eucharist, Primacy of Peter = early church

Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot = First Century Biblical Church. Please show me where early Catholicism celebrated these events.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot = First Century Biblical Church. Please show me where early Catholicism celebrated these events.

So you are Jewish now?

Christ instituted the 'new Passover' when He said 'It is finished' [completing the fourth cup of the Passover meal from Holy Thursday].

 

[Hawkeye]

So you are Jewish now?

[Exodus 23:14-17] Three times thou dost keep a feast to Me in a year; the Feast of Unleavened things thou dost keep; seven days (Pesach) thou dost eat unleavened things, as I have commanded thee, at the time appointed [in] the month of Abib; for in it thou hast come forth out of Egypt, and ye do not appear [in] My presence empty; and the Feast of Harvest, the first fruits of thy works (Shavuot) which thou sowest in the field; and the Feast of the In-Gathering, in the outgoing of the year, (Sukkot) in thy gathering thy works out of the field. Three times in a year do all thy males appear before the face of the Lord Jehovah.

I'm sure you're aware (maybe not) that 99% of the original first century church was Hebrew. The church continued observing these Holy Sabbaths well into the second century .....and it is documented by the very church fathers you have quoted..... as well as scripture.

Most of the church continued in its Hebrew character until the early Catholic Church caused much of its biblical background and instructions to be ignored..... in favor of a "New Theology" which included established pagan rituals and observances. This too.....is documented.

So.....would you like to show me where the early Catholic Church observed these Sabbaths as I asked earlier? As a direct commandment from the Great God of the Universe you would think they had to have a very good reason..... not to observe them.

If that commandment had been changed I would appreciate you showing me the passage(s).

Christ instituted the 'new Passover' when He said 'It is finished' [completing the fourth cup of the Passover meal from Holy Thursday].

 

[Arch Stanton]

[Exodus 23:14-17] Three times thou dost keep a feast to Me in a year; the Feast of Unleavened things thou dost keep; seven days (Pesach) thou dost eat unleavened things, as I have commanded thee, at the time appointed [in] the month of Abib; for in it thou hast come forth out of Egypt, and ye do not appear [in] My presence empty; and the Feast of Harvest, the first fruits of thy works (Shavuot) which thou sowest in the field; and the Feast of the In-Gathering, in the outgoing of the year, (Sukkot) in thy gathering thy works out of the field. Three times in a year do all thy males appear before the face of the Lord Jehovah.

I'm sure you're aware (maybe not) that 99% of the original first century church was Hebrew. The church continued observing these Holy Sabbaths well into the second century .....and it is documented by the very church fathers you have quoted..... as well as scripture.

Most of the church continued in its Hebrew character until the early Catholic Church caused much of its biblical background and instructions to be ignored..... in favor of a "New Theology" which included established pagan rituals and observances. This too.....is documented.

So.....would you like to show me where the early Catholic Church observed these Sabbaths as I asked earlier? As a direct commandment from the Great God of the Universe you would think they had to have a very good reason..... not to observe them.

If that commandment had been changed I would appreciate you showing me the passage(s).

Are we not part of the new covenant? Christ building a new ecclesia. Baptism to take the place of circumcision, the Eucharist as the new manna, Christ's priesthood to take the place of the Levites.

 

[Hawkeye]

Are we not part of the new covenant?

Of course! But you may be surprised at what the old covenant really was [Hebrews 7:11].

Christ building a new ecclesia. Baptism to take the place of circumcision

You might have some argument here. Circumcision is for the health of the ladies....not symbolic for rebirth.

the Eucharist as the new manna,

Hardly. The Eucharist is purely pagan in its origin (consumption of the god man). The Last Supper is what we're to remember and includes more than just bread and wine. It was a Chigigah meal....a meal that precedes the Passover Feast.

Christ's priesthood to take the place of the Levites.

Absolutely....and it does [Hebrews 7:12].

I'm still looking for verification that the Catholic Church observed the Father's Holy Feast days.................

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Eucharist is purely pagan in its origin (consumption of the god man).

Some say Christmas was pagan in its origin.

The Last Supper is what we're to remember and includes more than just bread and wine. It was a Chigigah meal....a meal that precedes the Passover Feast.

and 'it is finished' ended the Passover meal from Thursday evening.

I'm still looking for verification that the Catholic Church observed the Father's Holy Feast days.................

The new covenant - Christ's 'universal' Church.... which 'physical' church would that be Hawkeye?

 

[Hawkeye]

Some say Christmas was pagan in its origin.

Well.....it sure doesn't have anything to do with your savior.

and 'it is finished' ended the Passover meal from Thursday evening.

The Last Supper was not a Passover Feast....and it occurred on a Tuesday evening after sunset.....the 14th of Nisan 30 A.D. [John 19:14][19:31]. The High Sabbath of the 15th (Wednesday) began as He was being laid in the tomb by Joseph.

The new covenant - Christ's 'universal' Church.... which 'physical' church would that be Hawkeye?

In the scriptures it is referred to as "The Church Of God".....but I don't believe that today..... there is any one organization that represent the Biblical truths that are evident in those scriptures.

Since your not answering my original questions regarding the lack of observance by The Catholic Church regarding the Holy
Sabbaths.....I'll probably have to list all of the examples myself for the benefit of the lurkers.

They are probably getting tired of waiting............

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Last Supper was not a Passover Feast....and it occurred on a Tuesday evening after sunset.....the 14th of Nisan 30 A.D. [John 19:14][19:31]. The High Sabbath of the 15th (Wednesday) began as He was being laid in the tomb by Joseph.

So you don't agree with a Sunday resurrection?

In the scriptures it is referred to as "The Church Of God".....but I don't believe that today..... there is any one organization that represent the Biblical truths that are evident in those scriptures.

What about Christ's promises to the Church?

Since your not answering my original questions regarding the lack of observance by The Catholic Church regarding the Holy
Sabbaths.....I'll probably have to list all of the examples myself for the benefit of the lurkers.

As in the draft [NFL], you are on the clock....

They are probably getting tired of waiting............

and probably want to know your 'denomination' as well.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

or understanding what 'born again' [born from above] actually means

that is why we have a Church 'universal' to guide us, as the HS guides Christ's Church

baptized

What would you do or who would you rely on if you were a new Christian in AD 42?

The Holy Spirit, of course. HE'S THE ONE that gives wisdom, and leads us in truth. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY source of truth that has ever existed, and He'll open the Bible for us as long as we're single-minded about wanting His Council.

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Holy Spirit, of course. HE'S THE ONE that gives wisdom, and leads us in truth. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY source of truth that has ever existed, and He'll open the Bible for us as long as we're single-minded about wanting His Council.

please reread for understanding