Explain "Idols" if man does not seek God.....

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Yes that is very true and it all depends on the individuals and thehow the conversation progresses.
It reminds me of when my little girl asked me how God could do Miracles; I told her God uses Magic. She was totally content and went her merry way...

The Atheists here had a Thread about how God uses Magic, and no Christian would agree with them; until I came along. I agreed with them that God is Magical, and told them about my daughter's question. They liked my Simplicity and honesty; and being content, they went their merry way...

The Atheists just wanted a Christian to agree with the Obvious, but since the Doctrine of Signs and Wonders is complex, the Christians were opposed to Conflating Miracles with Magic...
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
That not exactly what I meant.

I'm talking about the principle in Calvinism that man will not seek God. This is contradicted by the man does seek a God. Just the wrong god.

It is the same thing that Paul declared

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

So the narrative that man does not seek God is not accurate.
Man has always seeked a god. There are many dumb wooden and stone idols to prove that. Paul teaches in Romans that God’s creation is obvious and man denies Him, and suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

As far as the true God goes, man is not a seeker. But everyone knows there is a God.

man is at enmity with God, he is a God hater. Unless one is drawn, he cannot come to Christ.

There are many that claim they do, but it is their idol factory (their mind) that has created the perfect Jesus to fit how they like. The Jesus they built loves everything and everybody. He lets you live how you want, without any judgement.
So this Jesus is an idol, one that man created himself. Man borrowed a little from scripture and conformed this Jesus into a perfect god of their liking. They have their cosmic bellhop. he is as worthless as a dumb piece of wood or stone.
 
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praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Man has always seeked a god. There are many dumb wooden and stone idols to prove that. Paul teaches in Romans that God’s creation is obvious and man denies Him, and suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

As far as the true God goes, man is not a seeker. But everyone knows there is a God.

man is at enmity with God, he is a God hater. Unless one is drawn, he cannot come to Christ.

There are many that claim they do, but it is their idol factory (their mind) that has created the perfect Jesus to fit how they like. The Jesus they built loves everything and everybody. He lets you live how you want, without any judgement.
So this Jesus is an idol, one that man created himself. Man borrowed a little from scripture and conformed this Jesus into a perfect god of their liking. They have their cosmic bellhop. he is as worthless as a dumb piece of wood or stone.

You said that man does not seek God. Which is it. Either he does or he doesn't.

Sure. People can make mistakes. You can too.

Out of "one side" of your mouth you say that man doesn't seek God. Out of the "other side of your mouth" you admit that he does. He just has to get it wrong?

How can a person get it wrong if they obey what the Scriptures plainly tell them to do? It is written for them to know.

You're so inconsistent and doubled minded. You can't keep that fairy tale you have in your head straight. You can't go to the Scriptures to help you because you only know a few of them. One's you've heard others reference. You can't do any better because you're beholding to men.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
You said that man does not seek God. Which is it. Either he does or he doesn't.

Sure. People can make mistakes. You can too.

Out of "one side" of your mouth you say that man doesn't seek God. Out of the "other side of your mouth" you admit that he does. He just has to get it wrong?

How can a person get it wrong if they obey what the Scriptures plainly tell them to do? It is written for them to know.

You're so inconsistent and doubled minded. You can't keep that fairy tale you have in your head straight. You can't go to the Scriptures to help you because you only know a few of them. One's you've heard others reference. You can't do any better because you're beholding to men.
I can’t make you understand the simplicity of my thread. When you mature, just look at it again.

Im still waiting for you to drop the insults and express a Christlike attitude. Is that coming soon?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Plenty of men seek god but they are false gods just look at all the different cults and heterodox religions
But that is not the point; the Calvinistic argument is that man, being totally depraved, cannot have the desire or will to seek for God. But religion has been the cornerstone of all human civilizations for time immemorial. Man has a natural instinct for something beyond himself, the proverbial “God shaped hole” that he longs to fill to complete his existence.

Yes, the sinful nature corrupts the nature of this quest, causing man to create false gods to account for the things man cannot understand or explain, but the desire and will to find God are not absent or incapacitated.

Idols are evidence that man does have desires for God figures to bring order to life. They are misguided desires, but they are true desires nonetheless!

Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But that is not the point; the Calvinistic argument is that man, being totally depraved, cannot have the desire or will to seek for God. But religion has been the cornerstone of all human civilizations for time immemorial. Man has a natural instinct for something beyond himself, the proverbial “God shaped hole” that he longs to fill to complete his existence.

Yes, the sinful nature corrupts the nature of this quest, causing man to create false gods to account for the things man cannot understand or explain, but the desire and will to find God are not absent or incapacitated.

Idols are evidence that man does have desires for God figures to bring order to life. They are misguided desires, but they are true desires nonetheless!

Doug
The First Commandment is applied to the Calvinist's argument against Ability, but the Second Commandment isn't; we all agree that everyone seeks a false god. There is a Time-Stamp applied to the First Commandment, IE prevening Grace; no one seeks God before this. After Grace? Sure, people seek God from then on...

This is so simple! It boggles my Mind that people still argue for Man's ability when they believe in Total Depravity and Efficacious Prevenient Grace. Do you really want the Truth to change? Never forget to apply the Fundamentals to your Apology...

Provisionists can argue for Total Ability, but you can never, ever argue for it...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
You said that man does not seek God. Which is it. Either he does or he doesn't.

Sure. People can make mistakes. You can too.

Out of "one side" of your mouth you say that man doesn't seek God. Out of the "other side of your mouth" you admit that he does. He just has to get it wrong?

How can a person get it wrong if they obey what the Scriptures plainly tell them to do? It is written for them to know.

You're so inconsistent and doubled minded. You can't keep that fairy tale you have in your head straight. You can't go to the Scriptures to help you because you only know a few of them. One's you've heard others reference. You can't do any better because you're beholding to men.
This discussion is an example of people committing the Logical Fallacy of Making a Category Mistake; and when that happens, people talk past each other. God is One; so without Prevenient Grace no one seeks the Most High God. We should discuss Categories to solve this...

I'll just go ahead and say it; all our differences can be solved by Fundamentalism, and exasperated without it...
 
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praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I can’t make you understand the simplicity of my thread. When you mature, just look at it again.

Im still waiting for you to drop the insults and express a Christlike attitude. Is that coming soon?

I can’t make you understand the simplicity of my thread. When you mature, just look at it again.

Im still waiting for you to drop the insults and express a Christlike attitude. Is that coming soon?

I'm still waiting for you to realize that you don't know what you think you know. I am doing you favor by pointing out your poor position.

You'll wait till I mature?...... yeah. By your measure of being "Christ like".... you've failed.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
This discussion is an example of people committing the Logical Fallacy of Making a Category Mistake; and when that happens, people talk past each other. God is One; so without Prevenient Grace no one seeks the Most High God. We should discuss Categories to solve this...

I'll just go ahead and say it; all our differences can be solved by Fundamentalism, and exasperated without it...

Category mistake?

Calvinists have always built their own little classifications.... You know... like enlightenment and revelation NOT being the same.....

Here the Calvinist narrative is the natural man is a fool. The fool has said in his heart.... THERE IS NO GOD.....

When someone point's out the FACT that many people have "their own" gods...... You crumble.... and start creating your OWN classifications like you always have....

If what Calvinist teaches about inability is true, then every natural man would be an atheist. They're not.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Category mistake?

Calvinists have always built their own little classifications.... You know... like enlightenment and revelation NOT being the same.....

Here the Calvinist narrative is the natural man is a fool. The fool has said in his heart.... THERE IS NO GOD.....

When someone point's out the FACT that many people have "their own" gods...... You crumble.... and start creating your OWN classifications like you always have....

If what Calvinist teaches about inability is true, then every natural man would be an atheist. They're not.
Could you tell me which Soteriology you hold to? It helps me to know ahead of time what you think, so it helps me know how to answer you quicker. For instance, I know what Doug holds to, so I can cut to the chase with him. What Denomination is your Church?

I attend an SBC Church, and have a history in an ARBCA and an IFB Church...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
This discussion is an example of people committing the Logical Fallacy of Making a Category Mistake; and when that happens, people talk past each other. God is One; so without Prevenient Grace no one seeks the Most High God. We should discuss Categories to solve this...

I'll just go ahead and say it; all our differences can be solved by Fundamentalism, and exasperated without it...
What I posted is quite simple and easy to understand. It’s not over anyone’s head or past them.

If it can’t be seen it’s because it’s not accepted.

Some people debate and continue because what matters most is winning. That’s where many loose sight, because they set their sights on winning at all costs.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I'm still waiting for you to realize that you don't know what you think you know.
And how would you know what I think I know?
And why would you say something like this in the first place?
I am doing you favor by pointing out your poor position.
I, along with many, believe the position is biblical. Why would I consider it a favor you pointing out things which you have very little or no understanding about?
You'll wait till I mature?...... yeah. By your measure of being "Christ like".... you've failed.
I have no reason to wait until you mature. It’s not my issue.

About me being Christlike? You don’t know me, and believe me, I am by far much worse then you think me to be.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What I posted is quite simple and easy to understand. It’s not over anyone’s head or past them.

If it can’t be seen it’s because it’s not accepted.

Some people debate and continue because what matters most is winning. That’s where many loose sight, because they set their sights on winning at all costs.
Some people have to win, because their tower will crumble like Jenga if they don't. It's like my point against Cults that disagree with Eternal Security, if for some reason they were to accept Eternal Security it would disrupt the rest of their doctrine. If Catholicism rejected Purgatory, that would change their Doctrine on Indulgences; so to not Win on Purgatory changes too many of their other beliefs. So the Moral of the Story is that if some people start accepting Inability without Grace, it would change everything...

You know I'm different when it comes to my Calvinism, and that's because I do let other beliefs influence me; like Fundamentalism. So I wouldn't expect the OP to say I'm just trying to win too...
 
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praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Could you tell me which Soteriology you hold to? It helps me to know ahead of time what you think, so it helps me know how to answer you quicker. For instance, I know what Doug holds to, so I can cut to the chase with him. What Denomination is your Church?

I attend an SBC Church, and have a history in an ARBCA and an IFB Church...

Your history in denominationalism speaks to your mutable every changing position. I reject denominationalism. I see you prefer being lots of different things.

I am a Christian and hold to Christianology. My theology is best described as "The Preeminence of Jesus Christ".
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Some people debate and continue because what matters most is winning. That’s where many loose sight, because they set their sights on winning at all costs.

I do not try to win "at all costs". However, it true that every man seeking to run a race.... should seek to win. Maybe you need to study a little more before you engage with someone who actually knows the Scriptures. I know the Scriptures. I know them better than most. Certainly better than you do. I don't say that to brag. You don't know me. I don't get anything out of saying this. I have no gain. I don't want your money. I don't need you to approve of me. I seek nothing but the furtherment of the Truth in Jesus Christ. That is all.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
And how would you know what I think I know?

How would you know what I think I know?

And why would you say something like this in the first place?

Because you said you were waiting on me..... I'm waiting on YOU....

I, along with many, believe the position is biblical.

Not true. There are far less Calvinists left in this world than there have been in the past. There is some truth to the position but it is filled with pride and self worth. I does NOT glorify Jesus Christ. It never has been about Jesus Christ and it never will be. It is about the individual. You have the most self centered religion that exists in theology. It shows.....

About me being Christlike? You don’t know me, and believe me, I am by far much worse then you think me to be.

I'm getting tired of this. Have what you want. I will ignore you from here on.
 

Theophilos

Active member
No. Not american idols.... :)

If man does not seek God, then explain all the false gods that are in this world?

Paul addressed this question when he spoke to the pagan Greeks in Athens:

But Paul, standing in the middle of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are rather superstitious.
For as I was passing by and noticing your idols, I also found an altar, on which was written: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this is what I am preaching to you:
the God who made the world and all that is in it, the One who is the Lord of heaven and earth, who does not live in temples made with hands.
Neither is he served by the hands of men, as if in need of anything, since it is he who gives to all things life and breath and all else.
And he has made, out of one, every family of man: to live upon the face of the entire earth, determining the appointed seasons and the limits of their habitation,
so as to seek God, if perhaps they may consider him or find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
‘For in him we live, and move, and exist.’ Just as some of your own poets have said. ‘For we are also of his family.’
Therefore, since we are of the family of God, we must not consider gold or silver or precious stones, or the engravings of art and of the imagination of man, to be a representation of what is Divine.
And indeed, God, having looked down to see the ignorance of these times, has now announced to men that everyone everywhere should do penance.
For he has appointed a day on which he will judge the world in equity, through the man whom he has appointed, offering faith to all, by raising him from the dead.
” Acts 17:22-31
 
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