Explain "Idols" if man does not seek God.....

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Paul addressed this question when he spoke to the pagan Greeks in Athens:

But Paul, standing in the middle of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are rather superstitious.
For as I was passing by and noticing your idols, I also found an altar, on which was written: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this is what I am preaching to you:
the God who made the world and all that is in it, the One who is the Lord of heaven and earth, who does not live in temples made with hands.
Neither is he served by the hands of men, as if in need of anything, since it is he who gives to all things life and breath and all else.
And he has made, out of one, every family of man: to live upon the face of the entire earth, determining the appointed seasons and the limits of their habitation,
so as to seek God, if perhaps they may consider him or find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
‘For in him we live, and move, and exist.’ Just as some of your own poets have said. ‘For we are also of his family.’
Therefore, since we are of the family of God, we must not consider gold or silver or precious stones, or the engravings of art and of the imagination of man, to be a representation of what is Divine.
And indeed, God, having looked down to see the ignorance of these times, has now announced to men that everyone everywhere should do penance.
For he has appointed a day on which he will judge the world in equity, through the man whom he has appointed, offering faith to all, by raising him from the dead.
” Acts 17:22-31

Absolutely.....

Then why do Calvinists demand that man can NOT seek God unless they are regenerated?
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Absolutely.....

Then why do Calvinists demand that man can seek God unless they are regenerated?
The reason for that is because of the Logical Order; Efficacious Grace prevenes Faith. Arminians also agree to this but they call the effect of Grace Illumination instead of calling it Regeneration. The reason that Efficacious Grace is required as the first-factor of Salvation is because of the Unconditional Consequence of Original Sin known as Total Depravity. If we're able to be Saved without God's prevening Grace, then we're Saved by our Prevenient Faith. No Christian I know of says they are Saved by their very own Prevenient Free Will...
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
I do not try to win "at all costs". However, it true that every man seeking to run a race.... should seek to win. Maybe you need to study a little more before you engage with someone who actually knows the Scriptures. I know the Scriptures. I know them better than most. Certainly better than you do. I don't say that to brag. You don't know me. I don't get anything out of saying this. I have no gain. I don't want your money. I don't need you to approve of me. I seek nothing but the furtherment of the Truth in Jesus Christ. That is all.
Well friend, what should I say?

if it is truly your desire to further the truth in Jesus, then I pray it will be so.

I don’t want to get involved with who knows scripture better then who, thats childish to even say such a thing. I know just as much as I have been taught by the Spirit, whether that be a little or a lot compared to you or others isn’t an issue for me.
When the Spirit shines his light of understanding on the smallest thing in His word, I’m speechless and amazed. If God decides to give me little glimpses of His truth and give you great amounts, I’m satisfied. He knows what’s best.

Keep in mind, I’m not competing against you about who knows more. I don’t know why that is so important to you.
If all I know about the Bible was knowing Christ, knowing Him would be all I need to know.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
How would you know what I think I know?
I don’t. I know about you what you claim to know. And how you put yourself forth. Nothing more.
Because you said you were waiting on me..... I'm waiting on YOU....
Okay.
Not true. There are far less Calvinists left in this world than there have been in the past.
So, majority rules?
There is some truth to the position but it is filled with pride and self worth.
This shows your ignorance of Calvinism.
I does NOT glorify Jesus Christ.
This shows your ignorance of Calvinism.
It never has been about Jesus Christ and it never will be.
This shows your ignorance of Calvinism.
It is about the individual. You have the most self centered religion that exists in theology. It shows.....
This shows your ignorance of Calvinism.
I'm getting tired of this. Have what you want. I will ignore you from here on.
Tired of what exactly?
Every time I comment on a post it seems to end up here. What’s your issue? Am I not allowed to contribute my thoughts or understanding?

ignore me or don’t ignore me, that’s your choice.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
The reason for that is because of the Logical Order; Efficacious Grace prevenes Faith. Arminians also agree to this but they call the effect of Grace Illumination instead of calling it Regeneration. The reason that Efficacious Grace is required as the first-factor of Salvation is because of the Unconditional Consequence of Original Sin known as Total Depravity. If we're able to be Saved without God's prevening Grace, then we're Saved by our Prevenient Faith. No Christian I know of says they are Saved by their very own Prevenient Free Will...
The reason Calvinists say man cannot seek God unless they are regenerate is simple. Because scripture teaches it!
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
No Christian I know of says they are Saved by their very own Prevenient Free Will...

That is utterly ridiculous.

You obviously don't know the varying members of our faith that exist throughout the world. Fundamentalist always think they're the "Center of the Universe".

I reject your logic completely....

Your comments are rooted and confined by your man made theology. They are not rooted in the Revelation of the Scriptures. You can't think apart from your own confinement. You filter everything you hear, read and seek to discern THROUGH your man made classifications and filters.

True Faith saves. It is not an work because faith is not a work. Faith is faith. Works are works. Your combination doesn't work in Light of the Scripture.

Jesus Christ was manifest to this world in the Incarnation. Jesus died OPENLY for ALL to consider. He didn't die in the back room of a church building on an man made altar for a select few to review.

This entire world BEHELD... HIS GRACE....

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

There is no BOASTING in faith. Faith WHOLLY RELIES upon another.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
That is utterly ridiculous.

You obviously don't know the varying members of our faith that exist throughout the world. Fundamentalist always think they're the "Center of the Universe".

I reject your logic completely....

Your comments are rooted and confined by your man made theology. They are not rooted in the Revelation of the Scriptures. You can't think apart from your own confinement. You filter everything you hear, read and seek to discern THROUGH your man made classifications and filters.

True Faith saves. It is not an work because faith is not a work. Faith is faith. Works are works. Your combination doesn't work in Light of the Scripture.

Jesus Christ was manifest to this world in the Incarnation. Jesus died OPENLY for ALL to consider. He didn't die in the back room of a church building on an man made altar for a select few to review.

This entire world BEHELD... HIS GRACE....

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

There is no BOASTING in faith. Faith WHOLLY RELIES upon another.
Do you have faith in your faith?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
That is utterly ridiculous.

You obviously don't know the varying members of our faith that exist throughout the world. Fundamentalist always think they're the "Center of the Universe".

I reject your logic completely....

Your comments are rooted and confined by your man made theology. They are not rooted in the Revelation of the Scriptures. You can't think apart from your own confinement. You filter everything you hear, read and seek to discern THROUGH your man made classifications and filters.

True Faith saves. It is not an work because faith is not a work. Faith is faith. Works are works. Your combination doesn't work in Light of the Scripture.

Jesus Christ was manifest to this world in the Incarnation. Jesus died OPENLY for ALL to consider. He didn't die in the back room of a church building on an man made altar for a select few to review.

This entire world BEHELD... HIS GRACE....

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

There is no BOASTING in faith. Faith WHOLLY RELIES upon another.
Are you saying that you're Saved by Grace after all you can do?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Jesus died OPENLY for ALL to consider.
What about Judas?

John 17

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

You must be given to the Son by the Father.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Are you saying that you're Saved by Grace after all you can do?

Anyone that is Saved is Saved by Grace.

No. I can do plenty to try to earn Salvation. Those are called works. Get it... WORK....

Faith isn't a work. Expressing faith in Jesus Christ is nothing I, nor anyone, can work to do.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
What about Judas?

John 17

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

You must be given to the Son by the Father.

You're moving on to something else. You're carrying something else into this particular context.

Yes. Judas considered Jesus Christ. Judas rejected Jesus Christ.

Who knows what happened after Judas betrayed Jesus Christ. I don't. You don't. No one does except for God.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Anyone that is Saved is Saved by Grace.

No. I can do plenty to try to earn Salvation. Those are called works. Get it... WORK....

Faith isn't a work. Expressing faith in Jesus Christ is nothing I, nor anyone, can work to do.
By Prevenient Grace, or by secondary or tertiary Grace like Mormons believe?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
By Prevenient Grace, or by secondary or tertiary Grace like Mormons believe?

I'm not going to use your terms. The Scriptures do not use them. I see no reason to use them. Grace is explicitly defined in the Scriptures.

Grace that brings salvation is Grace that brings salvation.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I'm not going to use your terms. The Scriptures do not use them. I see no reason to use them. Grace is explicitly defined in the Scriptures.

Grace that brings salvation is Grace that brings salvation.
Thanks for your time then; those terms are relevant to this Forum. Let me know when you want to talk about them...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
🦦 get comfortable, it’s gonna be a while
By saying he's not going to use our terms, it's like him saying I do not want to debate Calvinism; which is the topic of debate here. He's one of those who can't lose the point because if he does, everything is lost. To go on record as saying Grace prevenes Faith, means all is lost; and he knows it...

Grace prevening Faith is a full-proof argument for Total Inability...
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Thanks for your time then; those terms are relevant to this Forum. Let me know when you want to talk about them...

No. They are relative to some. They are relative to you.

You're bringing baggage into the conversation that injects man made theology.

I have no problem talking about them external to providing evidence to establish a fact. Facts are from Scripture.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No. They are relative to some. They are relative to you.

You're bringing baggage into the conversation that injects man made theology.

I have no problem talking about them external to providing evidence to establish a fact. Facts are from Scripture.
Thanks. Is the Grace of God always Prevenient then? Meaning that Grace prevenes even the Will?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
By saying he's not going to use our terms, it's like him saying I do not want to debate Calvinism; which is the topic of debate here. He's one of those who can't lose the point because if he does, everything is lost. To go on record as saying Grace prevenes Faith, means all is lost; and he knows it...

Grace prevening Faith is a full-proof argument for Total Inability...

I just explained why.

What in the world is "prevening".....

Again. You're trying to fit my comments into your system. I do not accept YOUR systems. I will argue points according to Scripture but I will not allow you to establish your own boundaries.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I just explained why.

What in the world is "prevening".....

Again. You're trying to fit my comments into your system. I do not accept YOUR systems. I will argue points according to Scripture but I will not allow you to establish your own boundaries.
Okay, let me know when you want to talk about about them...
 
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