Explain "Idols" if man does not seek God.....

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Thanks. Is the Grace of God always Prevenient then? Meaning that Grace prevenes even the Will?

At least you choose to use "prevene" properly. Not that I understand why you can't just use "precedes"....

Sure. God foreknew and planned our very existence and was GRACIOUS to purpose salvations to those who would believe of their own freewill.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
At least you choose to use "prevene" properly. Not that I understand why you can't just use "precedes"....

Sure. God foreknew and planned our very existence and was GRACIOUS to purpose salvations to those who would believe of their own freewill.
I use the words prevenes/prevenient because they are applicable to this Forum :)

Since you agree God's Grace precedes every aspect of Salvation, why do you not agree with Total Inability before God's Grace?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I just explained why.

What in the world is "prevening".....

Again. You're trying to fit my comments into your system. I do not accept YOUR systems. I will argue points according to Scripture but I will not allow you to establish your own boundaries.
That’s right! You tell him, only you can establish boundaries!
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I use the words prevenes/prevenient because they are applicable to this Forum :)

Since you agree God's Grace precedes every aspect of Salvation, why do you not agree with Total Inability before God's Grace?

I do not believe it precedes every aspect of salvation.

For the individual, God has shown Grace toward them in many varying ways long before they were ever born. God explicitly and purposely express Grace in Giving His Only Begotten Son for the entirety of humanity. The Incarnation and Crucifixion were open displays of Grace toward humanity.

Also, the "goodness" of God leads man to repentance. Add the preaching of the Gospel wherein the faithful openly declare God's Son to humanity... over and over again for all to consider. Wherein the faithful seek to pass their faith to others through their words and loving expression of concern for their fellowman.

All these are open displays of Grace. Divine and Divine orchestrated Grace.....

However, there is the imparting of Grace to the individual in salvation that is exercised when an individual accepts God goodness toward the individual and that individual, of their own volition, expresses faith in believing God.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Salvation by works.

No. Faith is not of works. You can't turn faith into works. I know Calvinist try but it is impossible. It is one of those little classifications that you like to create that have no place in realty compared to the Scriptures.

It is impossible to make sincere faith a work according to the Scriptures.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I use the words prevenes/prevenient because they are applicable to this Forum :)

Since you agree God's Grace precedes every aspect of Salvation, why do you not agree with Total Inability before God's Grace?

So you believe faith is a work? Even Calvin denied such. Calvin believed that faith was passive.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So you believe faith is a work? Even Calvin denied such. Calvin believed that faith was passive.
Faith cannot be a Meritorious Work because Faith is required for Salvation; and because we're not Saved by Works. So everything that is required to be Saved is excluded as a Meritorious Work...
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Faith cannot be a Meritorious Work because Faith is required for Salvation; and because we're not Saved by Works. So everything that is required to be Saved is excluded as a Meritorious Work...

You agreed with Carbon that I was teaching a salvation by works?

What I said was very clear. That faith is the responsibility of the individual. That faith is not a WORK. In fact, it is impossible for faith to be a work.

How do you come to the conclusion that I am teaching a salvation by works?

I'm not going to ask Carbon this because he will not answer. I have high expectation of you... :)
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You agreed with Carbon that I was teaching a salvation by works?

What is said was very clear. That faith is the responsibility of the individual. That faith is not a WORK. In fact, it is impossible for faith to be a work.

How do you come to the conclusion that I am teaching a salvation by works?

I'm not going to ask Carbon this because he will not answer. I have high expectation of you... :)
There is one way to decide if you are or are not teaching a Works Salvation, IE which side of Grace do you place Faith on; the prior bad "not by Works so no one can boast" side (before God's Grace is shed on thee); or the subsequent Good post-Salvific "Works we were created for" side? IE Ephesians 2:8-10's two Categories of Works. This is why I have been asking you if your Faith prevenes the Grace of God or not...

If God's Grace fundamentally prevenes even your Free Will, you're Totally Unable until that Grace makes it's real difference for you...

If God's Grace first comes to you Saturday, are you Totally Unable today? If you're Totally Able before Grace appears in your life, you ARE Saved by your very own Prevenient Faith. That's Meritorious; and Merit Conflates to Works...

By God's Grace I can even get Leighton Flowers to agree with me; but it makes him mad...
 
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praise_yeshua

Well-known member
There is one way to decide if you are or are not teaching a Works Salvation, IE which side of Grace do you place Faith on; the prior bad "not by Works so no one can boast" side (before God's Grace is shed on thee); or the subsequent Good post-Salvific "Works we were created for" side? IE Ephesians 2:8-10's two Categories of Works. This is why I have been asking you if your Faith prevenes the Grace of God or not...

There are two sides to Ephesians 2:8-10. Those two sides that never meet.... are faith and works.

I am very clearly talking about faith. There is no work to faith. Faith is passive. I do not understand how you're approaching this issue. It seems as if you don't want to admit that there is no circumstance wherein faith becomes a work. You want to both deny faith is a work but... on the backend.... say that faith is a work when I reference it.

If God's Grace fundamentally prevenes even your Free Will, you're Totally Unable until that Grace makes it's real difference for you...

That is different argument. In no circumstance can faith ever become a work. This NOT the same circumstance. You're "mudding the water".....

If God's Grace first comes to you Saturday, are you Totally Unable today? If you're Totally Able before Grace appears in your life, you ARE Saved by your very own Prevenient Faith. That's Meritorious; and Merit Conflates to Works...

By God's Grace I can even get Leighton Flowers to agree with me; but it makes him mad...
.

Faith endows no merit. No matter how you "slice" faith. It is a reliance upon something external to yourself.

Inability is a valid facet to discussing salvation. However, this does not preclude the fundamental fact that faith isn't a work. Yet, you're trying to make it a work in your response to my argument.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
There are two sides to Ephesians 2:8-10. Those two sides that never meet.... are faith and works.

I am very clearly talking about faith. There is no work to faith. Faith is passive. I do not understand how you're approaching this issue. It seems as if you don't want to admit that there is no circumstance wherein faith becomes a work. You want to both deny faith is a work but... on the backend.... say that faith is a work when I reference it.



That is different argument. In no circumstance can faith ever become a work. This NOT the same circumstance. You're "mudding the water".....



Faith endows no merit. No matter how you "slice" faith. It is a reliance upon something external to yourself.

Inability is a valid facet to discussing salvation. However, this does not preclude the fundamental fact that faith isn't a work. Yet, you're trying to make it a work in your response to my argument.
There is a circumstance in which Faith is a Work; IE a Graceless Faith. To avoid violating Godwin's Law, let's say there was a man named Hissler. He says he has Faith but because a bad tree is known by it's bad fruit, Hissler's Faith is Graceless. Therefore Hissler has Meritorious Prevenient Faith which is like a Filthy Rag...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
No. Faith is not of works. You can't turn faith into works. I know Calvinist try but it is impossible. It is one of those little classifications that you like to create that have no place in realty compared to the Scriptures.

It is impossible to make sincere faith a work according to the Scriptures.
The natural man does not possess saving faith. The natural man cannot decide he wants to believe/ have faith. It just don’t work that way.

I am well aware you disagree. Because you cannot see this truth, you don’t accept it and read into scripture to find a place your confirtable with. I see this all the time.

But you believe as you like, no pressure. If your saved your saved, you may not understand how you got there but it don’t change the fact your saved.

And yes your right, though I won’t use your words; the gift of faith/ genuine faith is not a work according to scripture.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
There is a circumstance in which Faith is a Work; IE a Graceless Faith. To avoid violating Godwin's Law, let's say there was a man named Hissler. He says he has Faith but because a bad tree is known by it's bad fruit, Hissler's Faith is Graceless. Therefore Hissler has Meritorious Prevenient Faith which is like a Filthy Rag...

Where have I demanded fruit?

True faith, which is what I'm reference includes nothing else. It is trust alone in Who God is and what He promised to do. This is ALL external to a person's own efforts. It is WHOLLY relying upon another to do what they can't do.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Where have I demanded fruit?

True faith, which is what I'm reference includes nothing else. It is trust alone in Who God is and what He promised to do. This is ALL external to a person's own efforts. It is WHOLLY relying upon another to do what they can't do.
The bottom line is that you have to believe that God's Grace is always prior to Faith, it's easy to say. Carbon would like to hear that...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
You agreed with Carbon that I was teaching a salvation by works?

What I said was very clear. That faith is the responsibility of the individual. That faith is not a WORK. In fact, it is impossible for faith to be a work.

How do you come to the conclusion that I am teaching a salvation by works?

I'm not going to ask Carbon this because he will not answer. I have high expectation of you... :)
Your teaching a salvation by works. You put a supernatural requirement on the natural man. You believe if a man is convinced enough/ enlightened etc... he may decide to have faith. That’s faith in your faith. Why you cannot see this, I dunno.
a man who is at enmity with God of all things. The whole man’s disposition is against God but you believe he can be convinced to make a decision to have faith.

You are correct it in the responsibility of the individual. God does not believe for us; but through regeneration the new man has faith, it’s a gift. this is the saving faith. It comes with the new man. Man does not decide to make a decision, but he after hearing the gospel, which is the power unto salvation to those who are believing, professes Christ, and his faith is counted as righteous and he is declared justified.
Glory to God alone.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Your teaching a salvation by works. You put a supernatural requirement on the natural man. You believe if a man is convinced enough/ enlightened etc... he may decide to have faith. That’s faith in your faith. Why you cannot see this, I dunno.
a man who is at enmity with God of all things. The whole man’s disposition is against God but you believe he can be convinced to make a decision to have faith.

You are correct it in the responsibility of the individual. God does not believe for us; but through regeneration the new man has faith, it’s a gift. this is the saving faith. It comes with the new man. Man does not decide to make a decision, but he after hearing the gospel, which is the power unto salvation to those who are believing, professes Christ, and his faith is counted as righteous and he is declared justified.
Glory to God alone.
I could probably break this down simpler for you if you would like?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
The bottom line is that you have to believe that God's Grace is always prior to Faith, it's easy to say. Carbon would like to hear that...

I've said it was before. I detailed how it was before. If you're expecting me to say that Grace is the overpowering work of the Spirit to regenerate a person BEFORE he can express faith and enabling the individual to express faith..... then I'm not going to say that. I don't believe such. I don't believe the Scriptures teach us such. Yes. God has shown Grace in many ways toward all mankind BEFORE they ever express faith. Just not in the manner you demand.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I've said it was before. I detailed how it was before. If you're expecting me to say that Grace is the overpowering work of the Spirit to regenerate a person BEFORE he can express faith and enabling the individual to express faith..... then I'm not going to say that. I don't believe such. I don't believe the Scriptures teach us such. Yes. God has shown Grace in many ways toward all mankind BEFORE they ever express faith. Just not in the manner you demand.
Thanks for agreeing to that. Right now I'm not trying to get you to believe in Regeneration, but to get you to acknowledge we're Totally Unable to believe without God's Grace; and you keep saying you agree to that. It's okay to believe in Illumination and be an Arminian...

So why are we Totally Unable without God's Grace?
 
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