Explicit Proof That Jesus Is God.

[Towerwatchman]

Explicit Proof That Jesus Is God.

I could cite many verses in the NT where Jesus claims to be God, and you can counter with other verses where you claim that Jesus states He is not God. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically “I am God.” But also nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically, “I am not God.” The next reasonable step would to search the remaining New Testament, to see if any of the NT writers plainly stated that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is not God. The evidence I am looking for is not a trail of premises that ultimately conclude to either support or deny the deity of Christ. I searched high and low and found nowhere in the New Testament where Jesus or the NT writers explicitly state that Jesus is not God, but I do find verses where it explicitly states that Jesus is God. If you have any counter verses where Jesus or the authors explicitly state that Jesus is not God, please submit.

Titus 2:13 = looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 = Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have [a]obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Note: any counter would have to rise to the same standard, and produce verses that explicitly state that Jesus is not God.

 

[Yahchristian]

Explicit Proof That Jesus Is God.

I could cite many verses in the NT where Jesus claims to be God, and you can counter with other verses where you claim that Jesus states He is not God. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically “I am God.” But also nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically, “I am not God.” The next reasonable step would to search the remaining New Testament, to see if any of the NT writers plainly stated that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is not God. The evidence I am looking for is not a trail of premises that ultimately conclude to either support or deny the deity of Christ. I searched high and low and found nowhere in the New Testament where Jesus or the NT writers explicitly state that Jesus is not God, but I do find verses where it explicitly states that Jesus is God. If you have any counter verses where Jesus or the authors explicitly state that Jesus is not God, please submit.

Titus 2:13 = looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 = Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have [a]obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Note: any counter would have to rise to the same standard, and produce verses that explicitly state that Jesus is not God.

Just to clarify what you believe...

When Jesus claims to be God...

Is Jesus claiming to be a divine "Person" or is Jesus claiming to be the divine "Being"?

...based on your definitions below...

“Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire.
“Being” refers to the essential attributes that make God what he is, holy, omnipresent, omniscient, immutable, all-powerful.

I agree that you have given explicit proof that Jesus is GOD (Yahweh)!

But now produce explicit proof that Jesus is ONLY ONE MEMBER of God (the TRINITARIAN view).

For example, provide explicit proof that "God" who says "I" here is NOT the same center of self-consciousness as Jesus.

Genesis 2:18... And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.


P.S.

Are you able to provide an overview of what you believe? Here is mine...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Just to clarify what you believe...

When Jesus claims to be God...

Is Jesus claiming to be a divine "Person" or is Jesus claiming to be the divine "Being"?

...based on your definitions below...

Jesus is claiming to be a divine person, consciousness, etc, who fully shares the divine being with three other persons, consciousnesses, etc.

I agree that you have given explicit proof that Jesus is GOD (Yahweh)!

But now produce explicit proof that Jesus is ONLY ONE MEMBER of God (the TRINITARIAN view).

For example, provide explicit proof that "God" who says "I" here is NOT the same center of self-consciousness as Jesus.

Genesis 2:18... And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Hebrews 1:8-9 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

All three rendering of theos carries the definite article 'ho' only used when referring to YHWH.
Note with the exception of 'ho theos' being heavly modified when referring to another.

 

[Yahchristian]

Hebrews 1:8-9 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

All three rendering of theos carries the definite article 'ho' only used when referring to YHWH.
Note with the exception of 'ho theos' being heavly modified when referring to another.

Can you clarify...

Some other Trinitarians say "ho theos" refers to the Godhead (all three Persons together).

Are you saying that YOU believe that Jesus is "ho theos" incarnate? (Which is what I believe.)

Or do you believe Jesus is ONE OF THE THREE MEMBERS of "ho theos" incarnate? (Which is the Trinitarian view.)

I could not tell from your post above. But it seems you agree with me rather than the typical Trinitarian view.

So I am interested in your clarification.

 

[OldShepherd]

Explicit Proof That Jesus Is God.

I could cite many verses in the NT where Jesus claims to be God, and you can counter with other verses where you claim that Jesus states He is not God. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically “I am God.” But also nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically, “I am not God.” The next reasonable step would to search the remaining New Testament, to see if any of the NT writers plainly stated that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is not God. The evidence I am looking for is not a trail of premises that ultimately conclude to either support or deny the deity of Christ. I searched high and low and found nowhere in the New Testament where Jesus or the NT writers explicitly state that Jesus is not God, but I do find verses where it explicitly states that Jesus is God. If you have any counter verses where Jesus or the authors explicitly state that Jesus is not God, please submit.

Titus 2:13 = looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 = Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have [a]obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Note: any counter would have to rise to the same standard, and produce verses that explicitly state that Jesus is not God.

If Jesus is not "God and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:1 then He is not "Lord and savior" in 2 Pet 1:11 the same grammatical structure.

 

[Kampioen]

Can you clarify...

Some other Trinitarians say "ho theos" refers to the Godhead (all three Persons together).

Are you saying that YOU believe that Jesus is "ho theos" incarnate? (Which is what I believe.)

Or do you believe Jesus is ONE OF THE THREE MEMBERS of "ho theos" incarnate? (Which is the Trinitarian view.)

The conclusion that reconciles Scriptures is that a distinction of (the) God ie the Word/Son is being referred to as a representation of (the) God Himself. Jesus is thus *the* God in context.

God ie the Trinity is comparative to how a man interacts with his distinctive conscience and subconscious, the three of which constitute the same one being.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Can you clarify...

Some other Trinitarians say "ho theos" refers to the Godhead (all three Persons together).

Are you saying that YOU believe that Jesus is "ho theos" incarnate? (Which is what I believe.)

Or do you believe Jesus is ONE OF THE THREE MEMBERS of "ho theos" incarnate? (Which is the Trinitarian view.)

I could not tell from your post above. But it seems you agree with me rather than the typical Trinitarian view.

So I am interested in your clarification.

it does not need to be so complicated. Ho theos = YHWH. It is that simple.

Hebrews 1:8-9 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, YHWH, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore YHWH, Your YHWH, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Conclusion from the text, there is one individual [center of consciousness] who identifies himself as ho theos/ YHWH addressing another individual [center of consciousness] as ho theos/ YHWH.

 

[Towerwatchman]

The conclusion that reconciles Scriptures is that a distinction of (the) God ie the Word/Son is being referred to as a representation of (the) God Himself. Jesus is thus *the* God in context.

God ie the Trinity is comparative to how a man interacts with his distinctive conscience and subconscious, the three of which constitute the same one being.

Conclusion from the text, there is one individual [center of consciousness] who identifies himself as ho theos/ YHWH addressing another individual [center of consciousness] as ho theos/ YHWH.
Nothing in the text hints to a 'representation' of God or God in'context'. The author or Heb is explicit when he identifies Jesus as God.

 

[Yahchristian]

it does not need to be so complicated. Ho theos = YHWH. It is that simple.

I agree that it is simple, YHWH (the only one WHO transcends all creations) is Ho Theos (the God).

But based on your definitions below...

Is YHWH (Ho Theos) a "Person" (a WHO)?

Or is YHWH (Ho Theos) a "Being" (a WHAT)?

“Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire.
“Being” refers to the essential attributes that make God what he is, holy, omnipresent, omniscient, immutable, all-powerful.

 

[Yahchristian]

Conclusion from the text, there is one individual [center of consciousness] who identifies himself as ho theos/ YHWH addressing another individual [center of consciousness] as ho theos/ YHWH.
Nothing in the text hints to a 'representation' of God or God in'context'. The author or Heb is explicit when he identifies Jesus as God.

Note: Some TRINITARIANS are going to object to you using the term "individual" to refer to a Person of the Trinity.

But according to your TRINITARIAN view, YOU believe...

One individual who identifies as THE GOD (ho theos) is DISTINCT from another individual who identifies as THE GOD.

Correct?

Whereas I agree with the Trinitarians who would say using the word "individual" in that context would be polytheistic.

 

[Towerwatchman]

I agree that it is simple, YHWH (the only one WHO transcends all creations) is Ho Theos (the God).

But based on your definitions below...

Is YHWH (Ho Theos) a "Person" (a WHO)?

Or is YHWH (Ho Theos) a "Being" (a WHAT)?

Pure rhetoric, Is Yahchristan a person or a being or both? The same applies to God.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Note: Some TRINITARIANS are going to object to you using the term "individual" to refer to a Person of the Trinity.

But according to your TRINITARIAN view, YOU believe...

One individual who identifies as THE GOD (ho theos) is DISTINCT from another individual who identifies as THE GOD.

Correct?

Whereas I agree with the Trinitarians who would say using the word "individual" in that context would be polytheistic.

Your statement "I agree with most Trinitarians"

The fallacy of Anonymous Authority.

“When unspecified sources use as evidence for the claim. This is commonly indicated by the phrases such as “they said, that it has been said, I heard that studies show’ or generalize groups such as ‘scientists say’. When we fail to specify a source of the authority we cannot verify the source, thus the credibility of the argument. Appeals to anonymous sources are more often than not either a way to fabricate, exaggerate, or misrepresent facts in order to deceive others into accepting a claim.” [Logically Fallacious]

 

[Yahchristian]

Your statement "I agree with most Trinitarians"

The fallacy of Anonymous Authority.

Perhaps I should have said most Trinitarians I have debated say you should not use the words "separate" or "individual" in referring to the Persons of the Trinity (since those words imply polytheism). You should use the words "distinct" and "Person" like the Catholic Catechism does (which is the catechism for the majority of professing Trinitarians).

But perhaps we can see what the Trinitarians on this forum believe.

Towerwatchman says there are three SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS who exist apart from creation.

If you are a TRINITARIAN, do you AGREE or DISAGREE with Towerwatchman on this?

Conclusion from the text, there is one individual [center of consciousness] who identifies himself as ho theos/ YHWH addressing another individual [center of consciousness] as ho theos/ YHWH.

When Isaiah saw the glory of God, Isaiah saw the glory of the whole, = one supernatural being who is fully shared by three separate centers of consciousness.

If you all agree with Towerwatchman, then I will start using those terms when I am describing the Trinitarian view on this forum.


P.S.

I say there is only ONE individual who exists apart from creation. Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Perhaps I should have said most Trinitarians I have debated say you should not use the words "separate" or "individual" in referring to the Persons of the Trinity (since those words imply polytheism). You should use the words "distinct" and "Person" like the Catholic Catechism does (which is the catechism for the majority of professing Trinitarians).

Still the fallacy of Anonymous Authority. But let's continue.

• Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God is a being with three centers of self-consciousness each of which can say “I”.
  • I am the Father.
  • I am the Son.
  • I am the Holy Spirit.
    • Each has a first-person perspective.
  • They are three distinct persons.
    • The Father is not identical to the Son or the Holy Spirit.
    • The Son is not identical to the Father or the Holy Spirit
    • The Holy Spirit is not identical to the Son or to the Father.
      • They are separate and individual centers of consciousness, but not independent of each other they still belong to the same being.

say there is only ONE individual who exists apart from creation. Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

Notice the difference between you and me. I present scripture as support. I present universal truth. You present your personal opinion. Personal opinions are not universal truths.
Also, notice you are off-topic. The OP is explicit proof that Jesus is God, which you seem to have wandered off from. Why?

 

[Ongyo no Kiheiji]

Explicit Proof That Jesus Is God.

I could cite many verses in the NT where Jesus claims to be God, and you can counter with other verses where you claim that Jesus states He is not God. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically “I am God.” But also nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus saying emphatically, “I am not God.” The next reasonable step would to search the remaining New Testament, to see if any of the NT writers plainly stated that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is not God. The evidence I am looking for is not a trail of premises that ultimately conclude to either support or deny the deity of Christ. I searched high and low and found nowhere in the New Testament where Jesus or the NT writers explicitly state that Jesus is not God, but I do find verses where it explicitly states that Jesus is God. If you have any counter verses where Jesus or the authors explicitly state that Jesus is not God, please submit.

Titus 2:13 = looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 = Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have [a]obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Note: any counter would have to rise to the same standard, and produce verses that explicitly state that Jesus is not God.

Jesus would not have to say "I am not God" when he (as well as the apostles) have declared: "I am God's son/Jesus is the Christ, the son of God" (John 10:36; 20:31).

 

[Ongyo no Kiheiji]

If Jesus is not "God and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:1 then He is not "Lord and savior" in 2 Pet 1:11 the same grammatical structure.

2 Thessalonians 1:12: του θεου ημων και κυριου ιησου χριστου (our God and the Lord Jesus Christ)
Also, note 1 Peter 1:1: του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

 

[OldShepherd]

Jesus would not have to say "I am not God" when he (as well as the apostles) have declared: "I am God's son/Jesus is the Christ, the son of God" (John 10:36; 20:31).

What would have happened if Jesus had openly claimed, "I am God?" Look at what happened when He only claimed to be the son of God? They conspired to have Him crucified.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Jesus would not have to say "I am not God" when he (as well as the apostles) have declared: "I am God's son/Jesus is the Christ, the son of God" (John 10:36; 20:31).

Let's address this philosophically.


Scripture indicates that Christ's Sonship is an eternal Sonship. It is one thing to say that Jesus became the Son of God; it is another thing altogether to say that He was always the Son of God. We must recognize that if there was a time when the Son was not the Son, then, to be consistent, there was also a time when the Father was not the Father. If the first person's designation as "Father" is an eternal title, then the second person's designation as "Son" must be so regarded.
Jesus Son of God = God

 

[Towerwatchman]

What would have happened if Jesus had openly claimed, "I am God?" Look at what happened when He only claimed to be the son of God? They conspired to have Him crucified.

And?

 

[Towerwatchman]

2 Thessalonians 1:12: του θεου ημων και κυριου ιησου χριστου (our God and the Lord Jesus Christ)
Also, note 1 Peter 1:1: του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

Depending on the context of the verse, chapter, book, and the main idea the translators will insert or delete words when translating. Even though 2 Thess 1:12 and 2Pe 1:1 have the same structure they cannot be translated the same due to the immediate text. 2Pe 1:1 is speaking exclusively about Jesus and 2 Thess 1:12 about Jesus and God.