extra Biblical sources of History

American Gothic

Well-known member
Terah was a big wig in Nimrod's government?
Nimrod wanted to kill Abraham, and Isaac?
Abraham was put in a fiery furnace, and survived?
Esau killed Nimrod!?

this is not in the Bible!

do other Jewish sources suggest agree or confirm?
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Terah was a big wig in Nimrod's government?
Nimrod wanted to kill Abraham, and Isaac?
Abraham was put in a fiery furnace, and survived?
Esau killed Nimrod!?

this is not in the Bible!

do other Jewish sources suggest agree or confirm?
Mostly Midrash. Do you know what they're for?

It's not history.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Mostly Midrash. Do you know what they're for?

It's not history.
I'll get back with specific source for points of Interest.
My intent here is discussion, not an insistence that you must believe all or even any points brought up -
this is just an area of personal interest lately...and Jewish history in general.
Sort of a ..."hmmm, never heard of that one before!" topic

works I might reference:
Jasher, Seder Olam, Jubilees, Enoch, Dead Sea Scrolls, testaments of early patriarchs, etc.
any reference or heads up to other (Jewish) sources would be appreciated


it all might contain some legit history, how would you know?
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I'll get back with specific source for points of Interest.
My intent here is discussion, not an insistence that you must believe all or even any points brought up -
this is just an area of personal interest lately...and Jewish history in general.
Ok, but midrash isn't Jewish history. Please know the difference.

Sort of a ..".hmmm, never heard of that one before!" topic
Ok, but state that and not that it's history.

works I might reference:
Jasher, Seder Olam, Jubilees, Enoch, Dead Sea Scrolls, testaments of early patriarchs, etc.
any reference or heads up to other sources would be appreciated
Ok.

it might be legit history, how would you know?
If you've read midrash, agadata, etc., you'll get a feel for what's meant to be real, allegorical, moral story, etc.

Your asking Jews what we think, so don't get defensive when we respond. Most likely, we won't agree with you or Jews with each other.

Anyway, Hag Sameach...
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
your asking Jews what we think, so don't geY defensive when we respond. Most likely, we won't agree with you or Jews with each other.
Oh, I love it when you guys get all stiff necked, hard headed, and argumentative - it's why God picked Israel!
Just remember the LOVE of a Jewish heart, ok?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Oh, I love it when you guys get all stiff necked, hard headed, and argumentative - it's why God picked Israel!
Just remember the LOVE of a Jewish heart, ok?
Rotfl... just remember, you came asking the questions.

Just remember to grab my hem, Zech 8:23 ;)

Edit personal attack
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
New Year of Dead Sea Scroll/Essene calendar starts in the Spring. (Nisan)
This isnt' the calendar new year. This is the new year of the earth. There is also a new year of trees.

Why would we care what the Essenes did? They were a heretical sect that died out, similar to the Saducees. Do you as a Christian give weight to what the Marcionites did, or the Ebionites, or the Gnostics?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Oh, I love it when you guys get all stiff necked, hard headed, and argumentative - it's why God picked Israel!
Just remember the LOVE of a Jewish heart, ok?
It's so hypocritical when Christians bring up the stiff necked thing. They think because our Holy and Perfect God says such things, that they can point the same finger without four fingers pointing back at themselves.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
This isnt' the calendar new year. This is the new year of the earth. There is also a new year of trees.

Why would we care what the Essenes did? They were a heretical sect that died out, similar to the Saducees. Do you as a Christian give weight to what the Marcionites did, or the Ebionites, or the Gnostics?
Qumran/DDS (disposed Zadok priesthood) calendar starts Nisan 1 and the holidays fall on the same days of week every year
360 days in 12 30day months with 4 outside the months "days" (solstices/equinoxes) and a leap week

did you know there are a number of first fruit days? (barley, wine, oil (olives?), etc. all 50 days apart from each other?
and a week of wood offering days from the non Levitical tribes, cool huh?

God calls Israel stiff necked, etc. it's cute how He does so
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
anyway, to reference some things I've mentioned before
-
Adam and Eve in the garden for 7 years before the Fall - Jubilees years 1-7AM (year of the World or something)

Adam and Eve not created in Eden, and put there after 40 days (Adam) and the 80th day (Eve) - Jubilees year 1AM
then went and lived in "the land of Elba, the land of his creation" year 8AM

no kids for first jubilee (50 years) but then in the "third week (7 years) of the second Jubilee" Cain born, "the fourth" Abel, and in
"the fifth" a daughter Awan, eventually Cain's wife - Jubilees, years 64-84
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
Qumran/DDS (disposed Zadok priesthood) calendar starts Nisan 1 and the holidays fall on the same days of week every year
360 days in 12 30day months with 4 outside the months "days" (solstices/equinoxes) and a leap week

did you know there are a number of first fruit days? (barley, wine, oil (olives?), etc. all 50 days apart from each other?
and a week of wood offering days from the non Levitical tribes, cool huh?

God calls Israel stiff necked, etc. it's cute how He does so
AGain. No one cares about Qumran as a source of authoritative calendar.

Again. Rosh Hashana is not the calendar new year. It is the new eyar of the earth. Judaism has several new years.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
anyway, to reference some things I've mentioned before
-
Adam and Eve in the garden for 7 years before the Fall - Jubilees years 1-7AM (year of the World or something)

Adam and Eve not created in Eden, and put there after 40 days (Adam) and the 80th day (Eve) - Jubilees year 1AM
then went and lived in "the land of Elba, the land of his creation" year 8AM

no kids for first jubilee (50 years) but then in the "third week (7 years) of the second Jubilee" Cain born, "the fourth" Abel, and in
"the fifth" a daughter Awan, eventually Cain's wife - Jubilees, years 64-84
Jubilees. Another book that no one accepts as canon.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
AGain. No one cares about Qumran as a source of authoritative calendar.

Again. Rosh Hashana is not the calendar new year. It is the new eyar of the earth. Judaism has several new years.
Again, the number of adherents to a particular view does not confirm or prove it's Truth,
nor have I proposed that any of these works are Scripture - just that they contain interesting details possibly omitted from Scripture.
Only God's Word of revelation should be trusted as such.

There were writings from the prophets Gad, Nathan, Shemaiah, Ahijah, and Iddo that were not put in the Hebrew bible as well.
There is a book of Gad avaliable, and it is pretty dope.
I'd bet some Jews, somewhere, have these "lost five" prophets in full, and they contain prophecies and History.

"This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you." Exodus 12
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Open Heart said:
just of curiosity, what is the chapter and verse where this list of miracles from Enoch is quoted in the gospels? Not that it would help your argument, but I am curious about such things.
It's where John has his people ask Jesus if they should look for another, and Jesus says tell John
“...the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them." Matthew 11/Luke 7 (not Enoch)
There is a similar reference to Messianic work in a scroll, which John if Essene might have known.

"[the hea]vens and the earth will listen to His Messiah [anointed one], and none therein will stray from the commandments of the holy ones.
Seekers of the Lord, strengthen yourselves in His service!
All you hopeful in (your) heart, will you not find the Lord in this?
For the Lord will consider the pious and call the righteous by name.
Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power.
And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom.
He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the b[ent]
And f[or] ever I will cleave to the hopeful and in His mercy...
And the fr[uit...] will not be delayed for anyone.
And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as [He...]
For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news to the poor
...He will lead the uprooted and knowledge.." DDS 4Q521

there is similar stuff in Isaiah, but I don't think Isaiah says anything about Messiah raising the dead
the reply of Jesus to John is cast in the same formula as the scroll
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Read Chronicles. There were many more prophetic books.
Hi H13 hope all is well with you

what's your view on Historical vs. Midrash
could you explain the purpose of Midrash that differs from just history?
is questionable history allowed within that type or genre of Jewish literature?

reading a work like Jasher seems pretty straight forward history, not commentary
"so and so married such and such in the year such and such and so and so was born in the year etc"

(questions directed at everyone if one wants to share or bludgeon)
 
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