extra Biblical sources of History

American Gothic

Well-known member
If you believe this to be true

in my copy of Jasher there is a long list from a scroll of gentile kings and events, not the later kings of Israel/Judah
guess who is on the list?

so according to that, in some way, Abraham was a ruler over gentiles
and if they considered them a part of their peoples and nations, then happy days
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Currently looking at the "Damascus Document" Dead Sea Scroll 4Q71D

"...the curses of the covenant took hold, delivering them to the sword to avenge the
breaches of the covenant. These seekers of smooth things (Sadducees) chose deceit
and loopholes in the Law. They laid waste the best of the flock buy justifying the
evil man and condemning the righteous. They transgressed the covenant, violated
the Law, conspired together against the soul of the righteous. Their soul despised
all who walk in integrity. They persecuted them with the sword and incited division
among the people. The wrath of God came against their congregation..."

I used to view the Sadducees as sort of Deist in outlook
but I now view them as maybe Atheist.
If they had been born at the top of this System, but they were violating it in significant ways -
If they didn't believe in Heaven/Hell, afterlife, resurrection, etc. -
then I don't see how they really believed in God at all
And if they were willing to do whatever it took to stay in their position
maybe it included even just keeping up a pretense of following Mosaic law
and any belief in the God of Israel as well.
I think they could have apostatized that far.

The Pharisees were correct on a number of levels to oppose them.
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"God...who justified the righteous and condemned the wicked
and all the saints who come after them, who (follow) the Law
as interpreted by the teachings of our ancestors until the end
of the Age of of these years.
God will atone for them in the same way that He will atone for
the forefathers' sin
(everyone's Sin issue gets dealt with the same way - very Christianish, that)
"By the end of this age the saints will no longer join themselves with
the house of Judah, but instead everyone will stand in his own house."
- "Damascus Document" DSS 4Q71D

This is one of the references to the Qumran Essenes interpreting
the Mosaic law by the writings of the pre-patriarchs that they were
keeping in the scrolls - writings the Sadducees and Pharisees did not
accept as authentic.
The Pharisees interpreted the Hebrew scriptures
in light of the Oral law.
That age they called the "age of Torah" and ended in 75ad
followed by what they call the "age of Grace".

American Gothic

Well-known member
And if they (Sadducees) were willing to do whatever it took to stay in their position
maybe it included even just keeping up a pretense of following Mosaic law
and any belief in the God of Israel
"...and all the sages of the Jewish people were killed.
And the world was desolate of Torah until Shimon ben Shetach
came and restored Torah to it's former glory"
Kiddushun 66a

"When King Yannai (Alexander Jannaeus) was killing the sages.."

"As Avraham Korman in his book "Sects and Cults in Judaism" pg. 233-234
footnote 28 wrote
'How did Shimon ben Shetach manage to restore Torah to it's former glory?
The turning of young children away from their faith pushed (him) to organize
a network of schools to teach Torah from a young age.'"

What did this restoration include?

2. He managed to remove the Sadducees from the Sanhedrin and return the
halachic reigns to the Pharisees. This was achieved thanks to the fact that
the majority of the Nation followed Pharisaic teachings, so even when the
Sanhedrin was turned over to the Sadducees, they acted as if they were
Pharisees, otherwise no one would follow them.
(Korman, pg. 235 footnote 34,
per Josephus "Antiquities" 18:1:4) hmmm

- from discussion on mi yodeya
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