Faith Alone

Newbirth

Well-known member
as we don't interpret that verse the same way
just answer the question
We don't do a lot of things the same way.
Is it possible for the Elect unto Salvation not be saved?
The passage answers the question. Why should I use my words? If they fall away it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
Are you Catholic?
That is a strange question...It appears that you are not reading my posts. Where in the scripture did God call anyone to be a catholic?
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Those who are predestined will be saved
If only some are predestined by God for salvation than this eliminates the need for personal repentance and moral responsibility making no sense of the concept that Christ paid a ransom.
Most importantly it attacks the very nature of God. God is love. How can God show his love when he gives retrobates every gift the world has to offer and denies them the means to return to his presence?
God is also impartial meaning that he has no favourites. Yet if God shows no partiality how is this reconciled with the fact that only the elect are chosen for salvation?
Those who are elect will be saved.
The meaning of election is in the Old Testament and New Testament means that God has a reason for selecting or choosing someone for doing something for him.
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
Yes it is.
We will have to agree to disagree . I view salvation as a ongoing process with it’s ultimate goal being that we are transformed into the image of Christ going from grace to grace.
You cannot re-crucify Jesus over and over.
Kindly explain to me how Christ is re-crucified over and over only if salvation is is a one time event and not a continuous process?
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
I view salvation as a process with it’s ultimate goal being that we are transformed into the image of Christ.
Just because you view it that way does not mean it is that way. The ultimate Goal of salvation is to endure to the end and attain eternal life.
Kindly explain how Christ we crucified re-crucified rover and over again if salvation is a process and not a one time event
Are you not familiar with this passage...Heb:6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
A person cannot sin in Christ all sin takes place outside of Christ. That means when a believer sin they would have already fallen away from Christ. They cannot go back to the place of justification and baptism and receiving the HS. They require the blood of Jesus to be cleansed but they would have already tarnished his name
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Just because you view it that way does not mean it is that way.
It’s applicable both ways.
The ultimate goal of salvation is to endure to the end and attain eternal life.
You are conflating the process with the goal.
Are you not familiar with this passage?
Hebrew 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Yes I am familiar with this passage of scripture however it is not applicable in this instance.
A person cannot sin in Christ all sin takes place outside of Christ.
Romans 3:23
23
for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
That means when a believer sins they would have already fallen away from Christ.
1 John 2:1-2
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
They cannot go back to the place of justification and baptism and receive the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 1:18
18
“Come now, and let us reason together,” saith the Lord. “Though your sins be as scarlet,they shall be as white as snow;though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
They require the blood of Jesus to be cleansed but they would have already tarnished his name
No they require repentance.
 

docphin5

Well-known member


I’m sorry you feel that way. I agree with the overall sentiment of what you have posted except for these two points of disagreement. Your uninformed opinion of us and erroneous belief that Paul taught salvation by faith alone.
To be clear, I think Paul taught faith and moral living (aka good works) VERSUS faith and works-of-the-Mosaic-Law (Aka Judaism).

Reading through the OP, I think the point Paul was making becomes confounded when people unwittingly substitute the general idea of “commandments” for what Paul specifically opposed, that is, works-of-the-Mosaic-Law (which Paul/Jesus abrogated).

Is Paul against commandments, specifically the command to be moral? No. For “Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of [Jesus] Christ.” (Gal. 6:2)

But Paul is against outward forms of ritual purity explicitly commanded by YHWH in the Mosaic Law being used as a means of salvation, FOR eternal life ONLY comes by the inner Spirit NOT by works of the flesh.

For example, YHWH explicitly commands food purity in the Mosaic Law whereas, Paul/Jesus declared all food clean. YHWH explicitly commands animal sacrifice whereas, the inner spirit of Isaiah, the inner spirit of the Teacher of Righteousness, the inner spirit of Paul, and the spirit of Jesus Christ canceled or abrogated animal sacrifice.

It is faith in Christ and moral living (by the inner Spirit) versus faith and outward forms of ritual purity (by the Mosaic Law), that confers eternal life.

”But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the [Mosaic] law.” (Gal 5:18)
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
@Mesenja

With regards to LDS (or any religion for that matter), the slippery slope is inventing new rituals because the tendency of human nature is to gradually make them necessary for salvation (i.e., “commands”) as each sect wants to distinguish themselves from other sects. The LDS Temple rituals was only an example of how works of the flesh may begin harmlessly as a unifying, edifying ritual for a community TO become a wedge between the saved versus the unsaved just as the Jews did with Gentiles (Catholics versus Protestants, etc.). Paul dispelled any works of the flesh, specifically, ritual purity, as having any efficacy for salvation once before when he opposed Jewish particularism and that will never change, no matter what your prophet commands or says God commands.

BTW, I actually have fond memories of my LDS friends (I was once a member), so many things I find good in the LDS. But I could not drink ALL the Kool-Aid so it was awkward for me to remain a member. I am not good at faking belief so now I walk to to my own beat.Ha ha!
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
@Mesenja

With regards to LDS (or any religion for that matter), the slippery slope is inventing new rituals because the tendency of human nature is to gradually make them necessary for salvation (i.e., “commands”) as each sect wants to distinguish themselves from other sects. The LDS Temple rituals was only an example of how works of the flesh may begin harmlessly as a unifying, edifying ritual for a community TO become a wedge between the saved versus the unsaved just as the Jews did with Gentiles (Catholics versus Protestants, etc.). Paul dispelled any works of the flesh, specifically, ritual purity, as having any efficacy for salvation once before when he opposed Jewish particularism and that will never change, no matter what your prophet commands or says God commands.
To my understanding, the temple is less about salvation (justification) and more about exaltation (sanctification).
BTW, I actually have fond memories of my LDS friends (I was once a member), so many things I find good in the LDS. But I could not drink ALL the Kool-Aid so it was awkward for me to remain a member. I am not good at faking belief so now I walk to to my own beat.Ha ha!
As long as it's within the dictates of your conscience - no judgment here. (11th Article of Faith)
 

docphin5

Well-known member
To my understanding, the temple is less about salvation (justification) and more about exaltation (sanctification).
If I recall correctly exaltation to the highest heaven requires certain LDS Temple rituals. How is that different than Judaism requiring Temple rituals to earn whatever reward they expect?

The underlying premise remains the same: specified works of the flesh (i.e. rituals held to be sacrosanct) are necessary to receive the highest rewards in heaven. Each religious sect claims their rituals have efficacy for some heavenly reward.

So if Paul suffered great personal hardship for repudiating Jewish particularism based on outward rituals (ie the Mosaic Law) why would any sect of Christianity think their own outward rituals garner favor with God? If it didn’t work for the national Jews then why would it work for the Gentiles? IMO, there is no religious ritual that earns any favor with God. Exaltation, salvation, glorification, etc. solely rests on one’s faith in the cosmic Savior (belief in God’s providence) and a moral consciousness (aka good works), anytime, anywhere, anyperson. No religion, nation, sect, race, sex, economic status, or education level has a monopoly on God’s grace and/or rewards.

That is why Christianity is arguably a universal religion. It is a religion for all people, all humanity, for all time.

As long as it's within the dictates of your conscience - no judgment here. (11th Article of Faith)
👍
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
Is it possible for the Elect unto Salvation not be saved?
Are the elect a particular person or group of people chosen by God to fulfill a particular task or be elected to a certain calling or is it those whom God has chosen for salvation?
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Go back and read what you previously posted
I never said it was.
I was speaking of repentance which is a little bit different than apostasy. Just a little. 🙄
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Relevance? You can’t just pick out similar words and as a result string verses together thinking that by doing this you’re making a cogent argument.
I had my sins washed away in the waters of baptism and having been buried with Christ in baptism I was also raised with him through my faith in the working of God that I too may walk in newness of life. (Colossians 2:12;Romans 6:3-4)
Yes when I came out of the waters of baptism for the remission of my sins I was in Christ. (Galatians 3:27;Romans 6:3)
That is in Christ.
Correct through the waters of baptism.
So tell me how is it possible to sin while you are abiding in Christ?
John 15:1-2,5,7,8
I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. 2 He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me—and I in him—bears much fruit,because apart from me you can accomplish nothing. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you want, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is honoured by this, that you bear[ much fruit and show that you are my disciples.
🤔 No.
Excellent.
You seem to be saying a lot that I never said or even implied.
Tell us what is repentance?
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
If I recall correctly exaltation to the highest heaven requires certain LDS Temple rituals. How is that different than Judaism requiring Temple rituals to earn whatever reward they expect?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but temple rituals in Judaism were an annual event. They did so to cleanse themselves of sin, right?
That's not much different from LDS partaking of the sacrament on a weekly basis.
However, LDS Temple Ordinances are only performed once for an individual.
The underlying premise remains the same: specified works of the flesh (i.e. rituals held to be sacrosanct) are necessary to receive the highest rewards in heaven. Each religious sect claims their rituals have efficacy for some heavenly reward.

So if Paul suffered great personal hardship for repudiating Jewish particularism based on outward rituals (ie the Mosaic Law) why would any sect of Christianity think their own outward rituals garner favor with God?
Because they believe God commanded them to.
If it didn’t work for the national Jews then why would it work for the Gentiles?
What do you mean "didn't work"?
IMO, there is no religious ritual that earns any favor with God. Exaltation, salvation, glorification, etc. solely rests on one’s faith in the cosmic Savior (belief in God’s providence) and a moral consciousness (aka good works), anytime, anywhere, any person. No religion, nation, sect, race, sex, economic status, or education level has a monopoly on God’s grace and/or rewards.
Well, that goes back the "one true Church" topic, but I can appreciate your sentiment.
That is why Christianity is arguably a universal religion. It is a religion for all people, all humanity, for all time.
And yet, Jesus said:
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
You dodged the question...Is is possible for you to sin while you are in Christ?
John 15:7-9
7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples.
9 “As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you. Continue ye in My love.

to remain stable or fixed in a state a love that abided with him all his days. 2 : to continue in a place : sojourn will abide in the house of the Lord. Miriam Webster Dictionary
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but temple rituals in Judaism were an annual event. They did so to cleanse themselves of sin, right?
That's not much different from LDS partaking of the sacrament on a weekly basis.
However, LDS Temple Ordinances are only performed once for an individual.
I read once that two-thirds of the 620+ Commands in the Mosaic Law pertain to the Jewish Temple, so Temple rituals heavily influenced Jewish religious life.

But the point was that outward rituals, no matter what religion they come from, are merely symbolic in value. There is zero efficacy for obtaining eternal life (or exaltation, sanctification, glorification) by outward physical rituals or works of the flesh. That is the essence of Paul’s teaching commonly referred to as
“faith versus works”…of the Mosaic Law,
of the flesh,
of the religiously inclined,
of any and all outward rituals invented or held by any or all religious sects past, present, and future, etc.
Rituals of any religion become a slippery slope, especially Judaism, as the priests administering them erroneously apply some spiritual efficacy, e.g., for eternal life, for exaltation, for pleasing God, for entering the “promised land“, —to what are merely works of the flesh having no impact on the spiritual world. At best, the rituals of the flesh hold symbolic value.

Because they believe God commanded them to.
Exactly. Therein lies the source of all the conflict. How does Isaiah, the Teacher of Righteousness, Paul/Jesus, abrogate a command of God explicitly written in the scripture? How can any human on earth ignore, as you say, what they believe God has commanded? It is essentially why Paul was such a polarizing figure, he had essentially rejected all ritual requirements commanded by God in the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees hated him for it. But those who believed Paul as a revelatory teacher saw what he was doing. He was not rejecting the Law, he was allegorizing it for its spiritual meaning (Gal 4:24). The symbolism in the narrative and the rituals commanded by God pertain to heavenly/celestial events or truths having efficacy for eternal life, for glorification, for pleasing God.

How did Paul arrive at that conclusion? Because there are two principles at work in creation, immanent within “the God Most High.” Just as there are two creations:
the old, and the new;
the material and the spiritual;
the flesh and the spirit;
there is also the ”god of this [material] age” (2 cor 4:4) who imposes works of the flesh for absolution and the Holy Spirit who grants a moral consciousness (“the Law written on our hearts”) revealing the spiritual meaning of the outward rituals which pertain to his spiritual kingdom that is to come, (and already arising within us).

Fulfill, the former requirements, ie., the works of the flesh, and you merely please the “god of this age”, which is temporary, imperfect, and coming to an end, BUT fulfill the latter requirements of a moral consciousness by the Spirit, and please the one who rules the spiritual world which is eternal, perfect, and coming as promised to pious, virtuous souls.

Paul could see the greater picture, worlds unending, whereas, weaker consciouses, could not. They could only perceive the material world that we live in and were inclined to hold onto the commands they believed the God of this age commanded them to do.

Therein lies the source of the conflict. Therein lies the dividing line between those who hated Paul and those who loved Paul for what he taught. And here we are two thousand years later trying to understand what he wrote: “faith versus works of the Law.”

 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
John 15:1-2,5,7,8
I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in meand I in himbears much fruit,because apart from me you can accomplish nothing. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you want, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is honoured by this, that you bear much fruit and show that you are my disciples.

Matthew 7:16-20
16
You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them

John 15:10
10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
I read once that two-thirds of the 620+ Commands in the Mosaic Law pertain to the Jewish Temple, so Temple rituals heavily influenced Jewish religious life.
But the point was that outward rituals,no matter what religion they come from,are merely symbolic in value. There is zero efficacy for obtaining eternal life (or exaltation,sanctification,glorification) by outward physical rituals or works of the flesh. That is the essence of Paul’s teaching commonly referred to as
“faith versus works”…of the Mosaic Law,of the flesh,of the religiously inclined,of any and all outward rituals invented or held by any or all religious sects past, present,and future, etc.
Rituals of any religion become a slippery slope,especially Judaism, as the priests administering them erroneously apply some spiritual efficacy,e.g., for eternal life,for exaltation,for pleasing God,for entering the “promised land“, — to what are merely works of the flesh having no impact on the spiritual world. At best,the rituals of the flesh hold symbolic value.
Exactly. Therein lies the source of all the conflict. How does Isaiah,the Teacher of Righteousness,Paul/Jesus, abrogate a command of God explicitly written in the scripture? How can any human on earth ignore, as you say,what they believe God has commanded? It is essentially why Paul was such a polarizing figure,he had essentially rejected all ritual requirements commanded by God in the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees hated him for it. But those who believed Paul as a revelatory teacher saw what he was doing. He was not rejecting the Law,he was allegorizing it for its spiritual meaning (Galatians 4:24). The symbolism in the narrative and the rituals commanded by God pertain to heavenly/celestial events or truths having efficacy for eternal life,for glorification, for pleasing God.
How did Paul arrive at that conclusion? Because there are two principles at work in creation,immanent within “the God Most High.” Just as there are two creations:the old,and the new;the material and the spiritual;the flesh and the spirit;there is also the ”god of this [material] age” (2 Corinthians 4:4) who imposes works of the flesh for absolution and the Holy Spirit who grants a moral consciousness (“the Law written on our hearts”) revealing the spiritual meaning of the outward rituals which pertain to his spiritual kingdom that is to come,(and already arising within us). Fulfill,the former requirements, ie.,the works of the flesh,and you merely please the “god of this age”,which is temporary,imperfect,and coming to an end,BUT fulfill the latter requirements of a moral consciousness by the Spirit,and please the one who rules the spiritual world which is eternal,perfect,and coming as promised to pious, virtuous souls.
Paul could see the greater picture, worlds unending, whereas, weaker consciouses, could not. They could only perceive the material world that we live in and were inclined to hold onto the commands they believed the God of this age commanded them to do.
Therein lies the source of the conflict. Therein lies the dividing line between those who hated Paul and those who loved Paul for what he taught. And here we are two thousand years later trying to understand what he wrote: “faith versus works of the Law.”

The Gift of Grace
By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf
Second Counselor in the First Presidency

[excerpt]

Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience;it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God. Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline. Or thinking that after paying rent for our home,we now hold title to the entire planet earth.
If grace is a gift of God,why then is obedience to God’s commandments so important? Why bother with God’s commandments—or repentance,for that matter? Why not just admit we’re sinful and let God save us?
Or,to put the question in Paul’s words,“Shall we continue in sin,that grace may abound?” Paul’s answer is simple and clear:“God forbid.”
Brothers and sisters,we obey the commandments of God—out of love for Him!
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
You posted all have sinned I just showed you that believers were purged from their old sins. You cannot be abiding in Christ with sin.

You cannot be in Christ and still sin. With that being said Jesus Christ was the only sinless one who came to take away our sins as we are sinners. We don’t suddenly stop sinning when we are in Christ. That is what repentance is for.

1 John 3:5
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

Salvation however is still conditional on a persevering faith in Christ.


John 8:31
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word,you are My disciples indeed.
John 15:7-7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you,you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified,that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
John 15:7-9
7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples.
9 “As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you. Continue ye in My love.

to remain stable or fixed in a state a love that abided with him all his days. 2 : to continue in a place : sojourn will abide in the house of the Lord. Miriam Webster Dictionary
More dodges you seem afraid to say yes or no. Can a person sin while they are abiding in Christ, Yes or No...?
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Ephesians 2:8,9 makes it clear that Salvation IS NOT through "Works",but by FAITH (gifted by God since humans can't generate Biblical FAITH on their own).
Salvation is by God’s grace that is made accessible through our faith.
One who has been Born AGain by FAITH,
No according to His mercy [grace] He saved us, through the washing of regeneration [baptismal regeneration] and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
has also been indwelled by the Holy Spirit, who joins with their human spirit, and provides the impetus for Romans 8:28,29 -
Provides the impetus for what exactly?
i.e. All things work TOGETHER for the good of the person, and that "Good" is defined as "Conforming one to the IMAGE of Jesus".

Ephesians 3:16-19
16
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them

The LAW is there as big as life, BUT the Born Again Christian has already been judged by it and their "old Man" has been nailed to the cross along with Jesus (Galatians 2:20).
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Romans 6:3-6
3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this,that our old man was crucified with Him,that the body of sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

The law has no effect on a dead person.
This has the suspicious appearance to me of Calvinistic claptrap which runs contrary to the plain teachings of the Bible.
HOWEVER THE LAW remains eternally as the Will of God for humans, and since the Born Again human is indwelled by the Holy Spirit, naturally their tendency will be toward living according to the law (imperfectly, since we're still human), but with a constant trend toward better performing God's will in life.
Other than fulfilling the two great commandments of The Law is there any other purpose for good works?
(Sanctification is a PROCESS that works in us as long as we live).
Is there a distinct dividing line between our justification and sanctification?
 
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