Faith Alone

[Mesenja]

What is the fruits of surrendering to Jesus (aka the Holy Spirit), according to Paul?

“But the fruit of the Spirit is
love,
joy,
peace,
patience,
kindness,
goodness,
faithfulness,
gentleness,
self-control;
against such things there is no law.
…
If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.” (Gal. 5:22)

Please note that there is not a single instance of ritual purity identified as “fruit”. Not a single “command“ to perform some ritual in a Temple, or anywhere else for that matter, in order to bear fruit for God. Not a single work of the flesh required to be in Jesus. These are ALL virtues that reside within the individual just as the Spirit resides in the individual.

Therefore, both Paul and the Gospel Jesus are in perfect harmony. They both abrogate the physical, ritualistic requirements, aka, “commandments”, of the Law, for the mystic meaning pertaining to spiritual life. Whosoever, then would declare another ritualistic requirement under the guise of a “commandment” for the purpose of glorification, sanctification, or absolution, has no need for the Holy Spirit, aka, the inner Christ Jesus. It is how Paul arrived at what appears to be an extreme position when he said, “Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision [as a necessity], Christ will be of no advantage to you.” (Galatians 5:2)​

2 Corinthians 9:8-1,
8 And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundanceso that by always having enough of everything you may share abundantly in every good work.
10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

Colossians 1:10
10 that ye might walk worthy of the Lord, in all pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
​

 

[Mesenja]

It means that you are afraid to answer a simple yes or no question?​

No that’s not what the quote even in the slightest. Try again.​

 

[docphin5]

2 Corinthians 9:8-1,
8 And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundanceso that by always having enough of everything you may share abundantly in every good work.
10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

Colossians 1:10
10 that ye might walk worthy of the Lord, in all pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
​

Right. There are “good works” arising by the inner Spirit summed up as “love your neighbor.”

“Good Works” arising from inner Holy Spirit by its fruit: Law written on our hearts
laying down one’s life for another —love
singing praises to the God Most High — joy
trusting God in all circumstances—peace
forbearance to flaws in others — patience,
kindness to others — kindness
goodness to others —goodness
faithfulness,…you get the picture
gentleness,
self-control;

Works of the law or ritual purity arising from “god of this world” commanded by intermediaries, or priestly class: Law written on stone or on paper
Removing the foreskin
Temple rituals (eg Judaism or Mormon)
Feast and festivals
Food purity (eg., no coffee)
Sabbaths
etc.

 

[Mesenja]

I asked you if a person can sin while they are in Christ. You said no. But you confessed that you have sinned. I want to know if you are different from everyone else and that you can sin while in Christ?​

I know the question that you asked me. It’s still not what the quote means even in the slightest. Try again​

 

[Mesenja]

“[The] problem does not lie in what [the spiritually blind] think they see; it lies in what they cannot yet see” - Henry B. Eyring, Mormon leader.

@Aaron32 The blind cannot lead the blind!​

Thank you for this display of honesty about yourself Janice Bower.

 

[Janice Bower]

The OP is about faith and works. Please don’t infect every OP with your judgment and cynicism of Mormonism by bringing up an unrelated topic. We get it, you don’t like Mormons, but do you have to get your jab in at every opportunity?

Your post is off-topic.

No, my post explains why they are opposed to Faith Alone. Your accusation that I don't like Mormons is false and based on nothing. . Mormons are not considered Chrristians at this site. If you want to defend Mormonism, you are at the wrong site. Either you are Mormon yourself or you are unaware of their teachings. Mormonism is VERY opposed to non free will doctrine.

My posts are informative. They are not jabs. I have nothing against Mormons so that is a false accusation. Unless you are a Mormon yourself, please stop judging me.

If you are unaware that Mormons are not Christians, you may be also unaware that this site lists them as non-Christians. Again, I have nothing against Mormons!

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
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[Janice Bower]

That is correct, so when you sin it means that you are already outside of Christ.

When you were forgiven of all your sins were you still in sin or were you without sin?

So why are we told not to continue in sin? Rom6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is about you and sin, not Jesus and sin.

Is salvation free or do you have to meet certain conditions?

You are talking about a different subject. My question is about if a person can be in Christ and sin.

We should walk in newness of life. We should and will repent if we sin. A new Christian is being taught how to walk in the Light; that is why God gave us scripture.

1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Mesenja]

We should walk in newness of life. We should and will repent if we sin. ​

Of course we will. Judas repented and felt remorse didn’t he? ? ​

 

[shnarkle]

Mormons are not considered Chrristians at this site. If you want to defend Mormonism, you are at the wrong site.

Why would they be at the wrong site? Doesn't this site allow topics to be debated? Does this site discriminate against allowing Mormons to post here?

Either you are Mormon yourself or you are unaware of their teachings. Mormonism is VERY opposed to non free will doctrine.

So they defend a doctrine that upholds free will?

 

[Mesenja]

Right. There are “good works” arising by the inner Spirit summed up as “love your neighbor.”​

Good works result from being in Christ which is made conditional on keeping God’s commandments.

10 If ye keep My commandments,ye shall abide in My love,even as I have kept My Father’s commandments,and abide in His love.​

“Good Works” arising from inner Holy Spirit by its fruit:​

2 Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you,that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things,may abound in every good work.
10 Now may He that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,and multiply your seed sown,and increase the fruits of your righteousness,
11 ye being enriched in everything to all bountifulness,which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.​

Law written on our hearts​

2 Corinthians 3:2-4
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 for ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us,written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God,not on tablets of stone but in fleshy tablets of the heart.
4 And such is the trust we have through Christ to Godward.

Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles,who have not the law,do by nature the things contained in the law,they,not having the law,are a law unto themselves,
​

laying down one’s life for another —love
singing praises to the God Most High — joy
trusting God in all circumstances—peace
forbearance to flaws in others — patience
kindness to others — kindness
goodness to others —goodness
faithfulness
gentleness
self-control​

Fruits of the Spirit are spoken of here in this instance. The fruits of righteousness which are good works is what is being referred to in the allegory of The Vine and The Branches.​

Works of the law or ritual purity arising from “god of this world” commanded by intermediaries,or priestly class:​

Luke 1:5-6
5 There was in the days of Herod,the king of Judea,a certain priest named Zacharias,of the priestly course of Abijah;and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron,and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God,walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.

Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,​

Law written on stone or on paper​

Ephesians 1:17
17 I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory and may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him​

Removing the foreskin. ​

Colossians 2:10-12
10 And ye are complete in Him,who is the head of all principality and power,
11 and in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.
12 Ye are buried with Him in baptism,wherein ye also are risen with Him through the faith wrought by the operation of God,who hath raised Him from the dead.​

Temple rituals (eg Judaism or Mormon)
​

Psalm 122
I was glad when they said unto me, “Let us go into the house of the Lord.”
9 Because of the house of the Lord our God,I will seek thy good.​

Sabbaths​

Exodus 20:8
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.​

 

[docphin5]

Good works result from being in Christ which is made conditional on keeping God’s commandments.

10 If ye keep My commandments,ye shall abide in My love,even as I have kept My Father’s commandments,and abide in His love.

2 Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you,that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things,may abound in every good work.
10 Now may He that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,and multiply your seed sown,and increase the fruits of your righteousness,
11 ye being enriched in everything to all bountifulness,which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

2 Corinthians 3:2-4
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 for ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us,written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God,not on tablets of stone but in fleshy tablets of the heart.
4 And such is the trust we have through Christ to Godward.

Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles,who have not the law,do by nature the things contained in the law,they,not having the law,are a law unto themselves,


Fruits of the Spirit are spoken of here in this instance. The fruits of righteousness which are good works is what is being referred to in the allegory of The Vine and The Branches.

Luke 1:5-6
5 There was in the days of Herod,the king of Judea,a certain priest named Zacharias,of the priestly course of Abijah;and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron,and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God,walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.

Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,

Ephesians 1:17
17 I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory and may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him

Colossians 2:10-12
10 And ye are complete in Him,who is the head of all principality and power,
11 and in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.
12 Ye are buried with Him in baptism,wherein ye also are risen with Him through the faith wrought by the operation of God,who hath raised Him from the dead.

Psalm 122
I was glad when they said unto me, “Let us go into the house of the Lord.”
9 Because of the house of the Lord our God,I will seek thy good.

Exodus 20:8
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.​

Sorry, I don’t know what your point is. All you are doing is quoting scriptures which supports everything I have been saying.

Take Colossians 2:10 for example.
“We are circumcised made WITHOUT hands.”

Please note, No physical hands required: “without hands”, because the true circumcision is performed by THE SPIRIT removing the carnal NATURE. IOW, the physical circumcision performed by physical hands holds no efficacy for being “in Him” or in Christ Jesus.

This supports everything I have been saying. Paul/Jesus rejected the physical outward rituals prescribed by the letter of the Law, in this case, circumcision, for the better mystical meaning pertaining to spiritual life. Whoever prefers the former over the latter is without Christ Jesus because they don’t understand what is truly spiritual and applicable for eternal life. To wit, they are erroneously trying to earn eternal rewards through works of the flesh.

The same line of thinking by Paul/Jesus applies to ALL outward rituals or works of the Law. At best, they serve to awaken the memory of sublime things above, or serve some physical benefit (i.e., the washing of dirt for baptism), or increase sin by adding another useless rule to follow (eg “do not drink coffee”), or no purpose at all (eg baptism for the dead who have no dirt to wash).

 

[docphin5]

<snip
Exodus 20:8
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.​

Take this reference above that you seem to think has some efficacy for eternal reward. What does the Gospel Jesus say about this right after being accused of breaking the Sabbath: “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

Jesus replies:

The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27-28).

Jesus as the Holy Spirit (1) is basically saying the physical, literal, fleshy application of YHWH’s commands have no authority over me. I know its true spiritual meaning and it is that true meaning I intend to uphold for my kingdom.

Is there any doubt why the Pharisees hated him now? It was a battle between the Laws Written on stone (i.e., the Mosaic Law) and the Law written on man’s heart (I.e., a moral consciousness). It was a battle between the old and the new covenant and the respective principles who administered them, namely, YHWH Elohim and the Holy Spirit, aka, the Prince of Truth.

1) “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.” (2 cor 3:17)

 

[Mesenja]

Sorry, I don’t know what your point is. All you are doing is quoting scriptures which supports everything I have been saying.​

All I am doing is giving the proper explanation of the allegory of The Vine and The Branches. And no it doesn’t align with your view.​

 

[docphin5]

All I am doing is giving the proper explanation of the allegory of The Vine and The Branches. And no it doesn’t align with your view.​

You don’t explain anything. You just spam scripture. You don’t think I know what scripture says?

 

[Mesenja]

Take this reference above that you seem to think has some efficacy for eternal reward.​

​

The reason we are to keep the sabbath day holy is that God has always expected His children to devote one day in seven to Him.

 

[Mesenja]

You don’t explain anything. You just spam scripture. You don’t think I know what scripture says?​

There’s a difference between knowing and understanding. However your point is well taken. Next time I will provide you with the much needed context you sorely lack. ​

 

[docphin5]

​

The reason we are to keep the sabbath day holy is that God has always expected His children to devote one day in seven to Him.

Right. So are we not to devote the other six days to him?

Also, HOW does one keep the Sabbath holy according to the Mosaic Law, according to the letter? Answer: By not doing ANY work or labor on that day. The Hasidic Jews have evolved extremely detailed descriptions/definitions of what constitutes “work” to include turning the lights on in a room. They had similar definitions in the first century that went to extreme efforts to do as you say, “keep it holy”.

But what do we find Jesus doing and saying? Working on the Sabbath and justifying his behavior as being superior to the letter of the Law and by implication the one, namely, YHWH, who gave the command in the first place. The point being that we keep the Sabbath holy through honoring its spiritual meaning, or by the Spirit which, apparently has nothing to do with physical labor, otherwise, Jesus would have no defense when accused of breaking it when he was seen gathering food to eat on the Sabbath.

But, but, …scripture explicitly says, “Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall not do any work,”

But what says Jesus: ”I am Lord of the [true, spiritual] Sabbath.”

The point, as always, is that the spiritual or revealed meaning of the Law is the ONLY meaning that is applicable to Christ’s kingdom. Devoting time to God is a worthy goal and arguably, a consciousness led by the Spirit, but that is entirely different from keeping the Sabbath holy according to the Mosaic Law, according to the letter. To wit, the Spirit trumps the letter every time they come into conflict.

 

[Mesenja]

Right. So are we not to devote the other six days to him?
Also, HOW does one keep the Sabbath holy according to the Mosaic Law, according to the letter? Answer:By not doing ANY work or labor on that day. The Hasidic Jews have evolved extremely detailed descriptions/definitions of what constitutes “work” to include turning the lights on in a room. They had similar definitions in the first century that went to extreme efforts to do as you say, “keep it holy”.
But what do we find Jesus doing and saying? Working on the Sabbath and justifying his behavior as being superior to the letter of the Law and by implication the one, namely, YHWH, who gave the command in the first place. The point being that we keep the Sabbath holy through honoring its spiritual meaning, or by the Spirit which, apparently has nothing to do with physical labor, otherwise, Jesus would have no defense when accused of breaking it when he was seen gathering food to eat on the Sabbath.
But, but, …scripture explicitly says, “Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall not do any work,”
But what says Jesus:”I am Lord of the [true, spiritual] Sabbath.”
The point, as always, is that the spiritual or revealed meaning of the Law is the ONLY meaning that is applicable to Christ’s kingdom. Devoting time to God is a worthy goal and arguably, a consciousness led by the Spirit, but that is entirely different from keeping the Sabbath holy according to the Mosaic Law, according to the letter. To wit, the Spirit trumps the letter every time they come into conflict.​

What did Jesus say were the two great commandments that hang all the law and the prophets? Therefore I see no reason why you ask me the question “So are we not to devote the other six days to him?” besides wanting to be argumentative.​

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

The Sabbath Is for You

God gave us the Sabbath for the most important things. How do you use it to grow closer to Him?

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

And I acknowledge the difference between following the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

​

 

[docphin5]

What did Jesus say were the two great commandments that hang all the law and the prophets? Therefore I see no reason why you ask me the question “So are we not to devote the other six days to him?” besides wanting to be argumentative.​

You are right, the question ended up being argumentative, my bad. I started going one direction, switched directions, and stepped in it. I should have deleted the question I started with.

The Sabbath Is for You

God gave us the Sabbath for the most important things. How do you use it to grow closer to Him?

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

​

There is nothing in this clip that is disagreeable to any reasonable person. It is what makes Mormon’s stand out in my opinion, because of their emphasis on family and spirituality. Moreover, I knew Mormons who worked on Sunday because their career in the health profession required it. In that case, the church is being led by the Spirit, versus the letter of the Law (exactly what Paul/Jesus did), —applying a moral consciousness to a situation versus following the letter strictly. Perfect!

And I acknowledge the difference between following the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.
​

 

[Janice Bower]

Why would they be at the wrong site? Doesn't this site allow topics to be debated? Does this site discriminate against allowing Mormons to post here?

So they defend a doctrine that upholds free

It seems to me that they should explain their opposition to every non-Mormon's beliefs. They have a different god, more than one god, the Bible according to them is not a sufficient guide, scriptures that opppose the Bible are superior to the Bible, that Christian churches are apostates from true Christianity, etc. I was merely trying to be helpful. When we talk to non-Christians, it's helpful to know their position.