Faith before regeneration is impossible

T

TomFL

Guest
tom


Argument from silence huh ?

Show us a verse in its context that actually states the unregenerate can believe the Gospel !
So you can't prove your view

All the following show the unregenerate can believe the gospel for they were saved, made alive regenerated through faith

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”

that is regeneration

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).


Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”





1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”


Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”


1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

…being born again…”
“…by the word of God…”


1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”

additionally the following shows the gospel can be understood and/or believed


 
T

TomFL

Guest
You are a stubborn one. I did show you verses. No interpretation involved in understanding what God says about children of men.

Will you admit that your understanding of all your selected verses contradict what God says about children of men? If you cannot do that there is really no reason to continue. You are like a blind man saying "I see, I see".

Once you admit your contradiction, I will gladly respond to your misunderstanding of your personally selected and personally interpreted verses.

You are like the detective at a crime scene who finds a note saying "John was here". When there is absolute proof John was not there. You still believe, because you read a note.....that John was there......you willfully want to believe John was there in spite of truth saying otherwise. You
willfully ignore the absolute truth/fact that John was not there. Likewise you read scriptures you think mean something. Yet there is proof that what you think cannot be true. So you willfully ignore those scriptures that prove what you think cannot be true. Comprehend your error? How do you ever expect to learn the truth that way?

So. is exercising faith in Jesus a good thing to do? Yes or no? Don't ignore this question and answer.
Sorry no you did not

You provided verses you interpreted to say that but actually do not say the unregenerate cannot believe the gospel

I can present many with show they can


Yes it is a good thing and I addressed this previously

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry context was presented showing it does not support you

you just ignore it

all are lost until saved and the bible is clear one must believe to be saved

Acts 16:31 (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:9 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Its as plain as day, the Gospel is hidden to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So you can't prove your view

All the following show the unregenerate can believe the gospel for they were saved, made alive regenerated through faith

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”

that is regeneration

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).


Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”





1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”


Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”


1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

…being born again…”
“…by the word of God…”


1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”

additionally the following shows the gospel can be understood and/or believed


Obviously you cant prove your view.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Obviously you cant prove your view.
What is obvious is you have nothing but denial to offer

 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Sorry no you did not

You provided verses you interpreted .........
I am almost embarrassed to tell you this....but.......the quoted text in the op does not need to be interpreted. No spiritual discernment or interpretation is needed. Let me show you.

God is looking down from heaven upon children of men. Who is God and the text identifying? Children of men. No interpretation needed.

Why is God looking at children of men? To see if any children of men understand and seek Him. Self explanatory, no interpretation needed.

What does God see? All children of men have turned away and become corrupt. No interpretation needed.

And the coup de grace of the text concerning your personal theology and biased interpretation of scripture is the final divine truth concerning children of men. And that is.......children of men do not do anything good....no....not a single one of them.

Hey we are only talking about two self explanatory sentences of scripture that has been repeated multiple times in the Bible.......and needs no interpretation.

Question.....and please answer it....ok? Is exercising faith in Jesus a good thing to do?
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Demons have faith (James 2:19) and they are unregenerated.
Two points . demons are not unregenerate. The are created spiritual beings that have never died. Unlike Adam and Eve who did die and passes on spiritual death to all mankind......and thus the reason God's children of promise need to be re-generated to life by the Holy Spirit.

Second....why do you assume belief is the same as faith? It is not. The verse you referenced says "believed", yet you said "faith".
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Two points . demons are not unregenerate. The are created spiritual beings that have never died. Unlike Adam and Eve who did die and passes on spiritual death to all mankind......and thus the reason God's children of promise need to be re-generated to life by the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps we should define some terms between us from scripture? What does spiritual death mean to you?
Second....why do you assume belief is the same as faith? It is not. The verse you referenced says "believed", yet you said "faith".
Same basic word. Faith is pistis which is the noun form of pisteuo. I see no useful distinction made in scripture.

Furthermore, James is using them interchangeably in his argument in James 2, so contextually they are the same. So I am not assuming, but deriving the meaning from the context.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I am almost embarrassed to tell you this....but.......the quoted text in the op does not need to be interpreted. No spiritual discernment or interpretation is needed. Let me show you.

God is looking down from heaven upon children of men. Who is God and the text identifying? Children of men. No interpretation needed.

Why is God looking at children of men? To see if any children of men understand and seek Him. Self explanatory, no interpretation needed.

What does God see? All children of men have turned away and become corrupt. No interpretation needed.

And the coup de grace of the text concerning your personal theology and biased interpretation of scripture is the final divine truth concerning children of men. And that is.......children of men do not do anything good....no....not a single one of them.

Hey we are only talking about two self explanatory sentences of scripture that has been repeated multiple times in the Bible.......and needs no interpretation.

Question.....and please answer it....ok? Is exercising faith in Jesus a good thing to do?
First you include no comment from my post

Sorry no you did not

You provided verses you interpreted to say that but actually do not say the unregenerate cannot believe the gospel

I can present many with show they can

Faith before regeneration is impossible

Your keep avoiding your contradiction. Just because you write many words that does not make your contradiction magically disappear. I'll try and make your contradiction, that you keep ignoring as if it is not present in the word of God, more clear. You say that faith precedes regeneration...
forums.carm.org

Yes it is a good thing and I addressed this previously

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

second your question has already been answered twice - maybe you should read it

It appears in the comments you neglected to include and it appears even read

third interpretation is always needed

For example the phrase children of men is used in the old testament in contradiction to the jews who are in covenant with God - the Israelites

in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
What is obvious is you have nothing but denial to offer

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

That plainly indicates Born of the Spirit before Faith, the Faith that believes in Christ and which pleases God.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

That plainly indicates Born of the Spirit before Faith, the Faith that believes in Christ and which pleases God.
I challenge the capitalization of Spirit in this context. I believe this is fruit of the human spirit in contrast to the human physical self, the body or flesh.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

That plainly indicates Born of the Spirit before Faith, the Faith that believes in Christ and which pleases God.
The fruit of the Spirit is for those saved through faith and are indelt by the Holy Spirit

thoughtlessly throwing out a verse apart from its context is not how biblical truth is discovered

In any case you are assuming saving faith is being spoken of
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
First you include no comment from my post

Sorry no you did not

You provided verses you interpreted to say that but actually do not say the unregenerate cannot believe the gospel

I can present many with show they can

Faith before regeneration is impossible

Your keep avoiding your contradiction. Just because you write many words that does not make your contradiction magically disappear. I'll try and make your contradiction, that you keep ignoring as if it is not present in the word of God, more clear. You say that faith precedes regeneration...
forums.carm.org

Yes it is a good thing and I addressed this previously

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

second your question has already been answered twice - maybe you should read it

It appears in the comments you neglected to include and it appears even read

third interpretation is always needed

For example the phrase children of men is used in the old testament in contradiction to the jews who are in covenant with God - the Israelites

in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5
Is believing the gospel a good thing to do?
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
First you include no comment from my post

Sorry no you did not

You provided verses you interpreted to say that but actually do not say the unregenerate cannot believe the gospel

I can present many with show they can

Faith before regeneration is impossible

Your keep avoiding your contradiction. Just because you write many words that does not make your contradiction magically disappear. I'll try and make your contradiction, that you keep ignoring as if it is not present in the word of God, more clear. You say that faith precedes regeneration...
forums.carm.org

Yes it is a good thing and I addressed this previously

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

second your question has already been answered twice - maybe you should read it

It appears in the comments you neglected to include and it appears even read

third interpretation is always needed

For example the phrase children of men is used in the old testament in contradiction to the jews who are in covenant with God - the Israelites

in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5
Is believing the gospel a good thing to do?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Is believing the gospel a good thing to do?
Already addressed twice previously

The third time down below

Why do you ignore what was posted just to repeat what was already answered

Address what you ignored

First you include no comment from my post

Sorry no you did not

You provided verses you interpreted to say that but actually do not say the unregenerate cannot believe the gospel

I can present many with show they can

Faith before regeneration is impossible

Your keep avoiding your contradiction. Just because you write many words that does not make your contradiction magically disappear. I'll try and make your contradiction, that you keep ignoring as if it is not present in the word of God, more clear. You say that faith precedes regeneration...
forums.carm.org

Yes it is a good thing and I addressed this previously

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

second your question has already been answered twice - maybe you should read it

It appears in the comments you neglected to include and it appears even read

third interpretation is always needed

For example the phrase children of men is used in the old testament in contradiction to the jews who are in covenant with God - the Israelites

in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Yes it is a good thing and I addressed this previously

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping
Utter nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in the text about "keeping the law". Just because Paul quotes the text and shortly afterwards speaks about the law, does not infer that "children of men do good" and has anything to do with the law. You are just desperate to come up with something to make sense of your error. You do realize, I hope, that Paul was speaking/writing to regenerate children of God (who at one time were unregenerate).......and even later states the truth that God sovereignly determines who His children are? "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.......This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the PROMISE are counted as offspring."


So, according to Tom.........God looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if any understand or seek Him. And what does God see concerning children of men? All the children of men are reading the Torah and trying to keep the law.

Do you see or comprehend the nonsense of your attempt to make sense of children of men DOING NOTHING GOOD IN THE SIGHT OF GOD?

Your attempt with the "law" to make sense is not even a bad....a silly......attempt; it is actually an obfuscation.

I am sorry but you have not eliminated your contradiction. The text says, children of men do nothing good in the sight of God, not a single one of them. But you keep....three times now...... directly trying to refute scripture (not my interpretation , but actual scripture) and say, children of men CAN DO GOOD THINGS IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. Again, which directly contradicts the written Word.

Again, I point out.......you think children of men can exercise faith (which is a good thing)......when the texts says of children of men, "there is NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NOT EVEN ONE!" And if you accept that Biblical truth about children of men and acknowledge your contradiction , you just might be able to start the process to harmonize the scriptures and eliminate your contradictions. But......you do have the freewill to cleave to your beloved dogma and hang on to your contradictions and continue to ignore scripture that refutes your theology. Why do you have such a hard time thinking/believing that those who exercise faith are already regenerate children of God? That would eliminate your contradiction! Why the stubborn resistance? Perhaps all your supposed proof texts are not even speaking about "spiritual regeneration" but something else? Maybe? Give that a thought.

Heavens sake......spiritual life from God is a gift.......a gift given when we were dead! You will find that somewhere in Ephesians.....just so you know.
 
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