Faith before regeneration is impossible

T

TomFL

Guest
Utter nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in the text about "keeping the law". Just because Paul quotes the text and shortly afterwards speaks about the law, does not infer that "children of men do good" and has anything to do with the law. You are just desperate to come up with something to make sense of your error. You do realize, I hope, that Paul was speaking/writing to regenerate children of God (who at one time were unregenerate).......and even later states the truth that God sovereignly determines who His children are? "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.......This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the PROMISE are counted as offspring."


So, according to Tom.........God looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if any understand or seek Him. And what does God see concerning children of men? All the children of men are reading the Torah and trying to keep the law.

Do you see or comprehend the nonsense of your attempt to make sense of children of men DOING NOTHING GOOD IN THE SIGHT OF GOD?

Your attempt with the "law" to make sense is not even a bad....a silly......attempt; it is actually an obfuscation.

I am sorry but you have not eliminated your contradiction. The text says, children of men do nothing good in the sight of God, not a single one of them. But you keep....three times now...... directly trying to refute scripture (not my interpretation , but actual scripture) and say, children of men CAN DO GOOD THINGS IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. Again, which directly contradicts the written Word.
This is funny

It took three attempts to get you to see your question was answered

now you can not even see what is in the context of the text of romans 3

Romans 3:9-21 (KJV)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

and in psalm 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There are two parties here the children of men and My people - the generation of the righteous Jews like David

You have ignored much of what was originally stated

I posted many verses in the link below you did not address

Click on ut to see what you ignored

Faith before regeneration is impossible

Your keep avoiding your contradiction. Just because you write many words that does not make your contradiction magically disappear. I'll try and make your contradiction, that you keep ignoring as if it is not present in the word of God, more clear. You say that faith precedes regeneration...
forums.carm.org

Below I had addressed your concern for a third time

Yes it is a good thing and I addressed this previously

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping (refering to Roman 3}

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

second your question has already been answered twice - maybe you should read it

It appears in the comments you neglected to include and it appears even read

third interpretation is always needed

Here I address the phrase children of men

For example the phrase children of men is used in the old testament in contradiction to the jews who are in covenant with God - the Israelites

in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

you failed to address this and just repeat your claims

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

Of course you don't address that either

How can you ever hope to understand if you don't read replies

and deal with them
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
and in psalm 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There are two parties here the children of men and My people - the generation of the righteous Jews like David



in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

you failed to address this and just repeat your claims

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

Of course you don't address that either

How can you ever hope to understand if you don't read replies

and deal with them

Your singular mind is amazing. Do you ever take the time to reason what you read, apart from your singular focus? You think Ps. 14 refutes what I say? Hardly. You do acknowledge two different people in the text, children of men and My people, which one only has to be literate for that. Nonetheless, it is a good thing you notice that.

Now the text differentiates , children of men from God's children , specifically stating, they do not seek God and do not understand the things of God and have no knowledge and are fools, who say "there is no God", are corrupt, evildoers, do not call upon the Lord.....and.....and do nothing good, not a single one of them.

So.....tell me again.....how do children of men become children of God, My people? How does that work? Oh, and don't contradict what the text says about children of men....OK?

Seems to me.......your children of men must one day while sitting around plotting evil against God's children, think to themselves...."Hmmmmm, I am tired of being a know nothing, evildoer......I think I am going to become a righteous child of God. Yes, that is what I am going to do today!"

Is that how it works in your theology? Well.....that contradicts the Word of God.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Your singular mind is amazing. Do you ever take the time to reason what you read, apart from your singular focus? You think Ps. 14 refutes what I say? Hardly. You do acknowledge two different people in the text, children of men and My people, which one only has to be literate for that. Nonetheless, it is a good thing you notice that.

Now the text differentiates , children of men from God's children , specifically stating, they do not seek God and do not understand the things of God and have no knowledge and are fools, who say "there is no God", are corrupt, evildoers, do not call upon the Lord.....and.....and do nothing good, not a single one of them.

So.....tell me again.....how do children of men become children of God, My people? How does that work? Oh, and don't contradict what the text says about children of men....OK?

Seems to me.......your children of men must one day while sitting around plotting evil against God's children, think to themselves...."Hmmmmm, I am tired of being a know nothing, evildoer......I think I am going to become a righteous child of God. Yes, that is what I am going to do today!"

Is that how it works in your theology? Well.....that contradicts the Word of God.
Once again you address nothing

and in psalm 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There are two parties here the children of men and My people - the generation of the righteous Jews like David

Did you address ?



in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

you failed to address this and just repeat your claims

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

Of course you don't address that either

How can you ever hope to understand if you don't read replies

and deal with them

and you totally omitted

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping (refering to Roman 3}

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Hello

How is righteous by faith even possible if no one can understand or believe

Your interpretation is contrary to the context


as well as the link below
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Once again you address nothing

and in psalm 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There are two parties here the children of men and My people - the generation of the righteous Jews like David

Did you address ?



in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

you failed to address this and just repeat your claims

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

Of course you don't address that either

How can you ever hope to understand if you don't read replies

and deal with them

and you totally omitted

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping (refering to Roman 3}

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Hello

How is righteous by faith even possible if no one can understand or believe

Your interpretation is contrary to the context


as well as the link below
How does yor mind reason??? And apparently you did not comprehend my last post. I will try to make this very simple.

In Ps. 14 you correctly identify two separate an distinct people.....children of men and children of God.

The text makes statements about children of men.

They are fools who say "There is no God!"
They are corrupt.
They are evildoers.
The do not understand.
They do not seek God.
They have no knowledge.
And the coup de grace to your theology.......
They do NOTHING GOOD, no, not a single one of them.

Now, will you walk me through the process of how a child of man becomes a child of God WITHOUT CONTRADICTING THE TRUTH THE BIBLE DECLARES ABOUT CHILDREN OF MEN. Please.......please do not write any statement that contradicts what the Bible says.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Hey, Arminians........you have a big contradiction with what God tells us.

You cannot ignore, although many of you do, what the Lord tells us about unregenerate children of MEN.....not children of God.....but children of men, ie. the unregenerate. And first let me address this point about children of men. If a child of man was regenerate.....he would not be a child of man but a child of God. Spiritual regeneration....the renewing of a spirit by the Holy Spirit is what makes the unregenerate child of man into a regenerate child of God. So, when the Father specifically identifies children of men He is speaking about the unregenerate.

What does God tell us?

Ps. 14, Ps. 53, and Rom. 3 "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the CHILDREN OF MEN (notice....not His children but children of men) to see if there were any who understand, and seek God. They (CHILDREN OF MEN) are all gone aside, are all together become filthy: there is NONE that does good, NO, NOT ONE."

You cannot just ignore what God tells us about children of men. And as the truth of the text stands.......there is NO place for faith with children of men.

And exercise of "faith" by unregenerate children of men would contradict the above text ; which makes the exercise of "faith" by an unregenerate an impossibility.

You cannot come up with any way that an unregenerate can be saved, apart from first being regenerated to life by the Holy Spirit. Faith cannot precede regeneration.

But if you want to make a case without violating the above text........give it a try. Oh, and please don't quote text that contradict the scriptures I cited.....we know the Word of God does not contradict itself. But if you can find a verse of scripture or text in the Bible that says that the unregenerate can exercise "faith"........what I am saying here is all those verses you use to make your case need to make clear those who are identified are unregenerate children of men and NOT children of God.

Oh, and your "prevenient grace" is also an impossibility because that would be a good work by God and once God begins a good work He will perform it to the end; which means everyone will be saved and no one will be lost. Which is not true. We know some will be cast into the lake of fire.

Now, if you want to correctly identify your "prevenient grace" as the actual act of regeneration by the Holy Spirit......you prove my case and the OP.

Question for the Arminian and those like minded. Would the exercise of faith in Jesus......or even believing in Jesus be doing a good thing?

Who dies with Christ without faith in him? No one.

Who has been born anew to new life with him without first dying with him? No one.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Hey, Arminians........you have a big contradiction with what God tells us.

You cannot ignore, although many of you do, what the Lord tells us about unregenerate children of MEN.....not children of God.....but children of men, ie. the unregenerate. And first let me address this point about children of men. If a child of man was regenerate.....he would not be a child of man but a child of God. Spiritual regeneration....the renewing of a spirit by the Holy Spirit is what makes the unregenerate child of man into a regenerate child of God. So, when the Father specifically identifies children of men He is speaking about the unregenerate.

What does God tell us?

Ps. 14, Ps. 53, and Rom. 3 "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the CHILDREN OF MEN (notice....not His children but children of men) to see if there were any who understand, and seek God. They (CHILDREN OF MEN) are all gone aside, are all together become filthy: there is NONE that does good, NO, NOT ONE."

You cannot just ignore what God tells us about children of men. And as the truth of the text stands.......there is NO place for faith with children of men.

And exercise of "faith" by unregenerate children of men would contradict the above text ; which makes the exercise of "faith" by an unregenerate an impossibility.

You cannot come up with any way that an unregenerate can be saved, apart from first being regenerated to life by the Holy Spirit. Faith cannot precede regeneration.

But if you want to make a case without violating the above text........give it a try. Oh, and please don't quote text that contradict the scriptures I cited.....we know the Word of God does not contradict itself. But if you can find a verse of scripture or text in the Bible that says that the unregenerate can exercise "faith"........what I am saying here is all those verses you use to make your case need to make clear those who are identified are unregenerate children of men and NOT children of God.

Oh, and your "prevenient grace" is also an impossibility because that would be a good work by God and once God begins a good work He will perform it to the end; which means everyone will be saved and no one will be lost. Which is not true. We know some will be cast into the lake of fire.

Now, if you want to correctly identify your "prevenient grace" as the actual act of regeneration by the Holy Spirit......you prove my case and the OP.

Question for the Arminian and those like minded. Would the exercise of faith in Jesus......or even believing in Jesus be doing a good thing?

Knowing we are not good, but knowing that God is, is FAITH that God is good. It is just as a child has faith that his father will catch him if he jumps into his arms. Must that child first be regenerated to believe that simple truth? No, and neither do we have to have supernatural faith that can move mountains to believe in Jesus.

This theology of having the cart before the horse is not biblical, and pure ignorance of what faith is.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Knowing we are not good, but knowing that God is, is FAITH that God is good. It is just as a child has faith that his father will catch him if he jumps into his arms. Must that child first be regenerated to believe that simple truth? No, and neither do we have to have supernatural faith that can move mountains to believe in Jesus.

This theology of having the cart before the horse is not biblical, and pure ignorance of what faith is.
Children of men according to divine truth and the words of Jesus do not do nor can do what you say they can.

Please respond to post #48 .
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Who dies with Christ without faith in him? No one.

Who has been born anew to new life with him without first dying with him? No one.
Not sure what your point is. Seems like you are speaking of a child of God converting and not the divine act a spiritual regeneration.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Children of men according to divine truth and the words of Jesus do not do nor can do what you say they can.

Please respond to post #48 .
Well I did when I wasn't saved, and knew I wasn't. As far as #48. Not everyone is such that God turns them over to a reprobate mind. Calvinists still do not understand what faith is. Everyone has a measure of faith, even a child. That is why Jesus said, that unless WE have the faith of a child, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Now don't twist His words and say that Jesus gives us the faith first like we are some kind of mindless robot.
 
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Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Then you are blind.



Seems like you are tickling your own itching ears.
Or youhave written a couple of obtuse statements not relative to the op.

Hey.....I have a novel idea.....is you disagree with a point in the op......how about identifying the objection then make a scriptural refute? Ok?

I am not a mind reader. I am sure you know what point you intended to make......does not mean everyone else knows.

You do realize that spiritually dead unregenerate children of men cannot "die in Christ"? They are already dead.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Or youhave written a couple of obtuse statements not relative to the op.

Hey.....I have a novel idea.....is you disagree with a point in the op......how about identifying the objection then make a scriptural refute? Ok?

I already did. It apparently sailed right over your head.

I am not a mind reader. I am sure you know what point you intended to make......does not mean everyone else knows.

You do realize that spiritually dead unregenerate children of men cannot "die in Christ"? They are already dead.

You aren't spiritually ALIVE with Christ until you have died with Christ and been raised up to new LIFE in Christ.

That is Christianity 101.

But you are too amused with hearing yourself talk.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Well I did when I wasn't saved, and knew I wasn't. As far as #48. Not everyone is such that God turns them over to a reprobate mind. Calvinists still do not understand what faith is. Everyone has a measure of faith, even a child. That is why Jesus said, that unless WE have the faith of a child, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Now don't twist His words and say that Jesus gives us the faith first like we are some kind of mindless robot.
Unregenerate children of men know nothing and do nothing.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
How does yor mind reason??? And apparently you did not comprehend my last post. I will try to make this very simple.

In Ps. 14 you correctly identify two separate an distinct people.....children of men and children of God.

The text makes statements about children of men.

They are fools who say "There is no God!"
They are corrupt.
They are evildoers.
The do not understand.
They do not seek God.
They have no knowledge.
And the coup de grace to your theology.......
They do NOTHING GOOD, no, not a single one of them.

Now, will you walk me through the process of how a child of man becomes a child of God WITHOUT CONTRADICTING THE TRUTH THE BIBLE DECLARES ABOUT CHILDREN OF MEN. Please.......please do not write any statement that contradicts what the Bible says.
Do you ever read replies ?

First it took three replies to get you to see your previous question was answered

Now You were told multiple time the phrase children of men is used in a manner to indicate non Jews - those who were not in a covenant with God

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

The children of men are those who are not David's people i.e, non jews men not in covenant

as was noted previously

Once again you address nothing

and in psalm 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There are two parties here the children of men and My people - the generation of the righteous Jews like David

Did you address ?



in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

you failed to address this and just repeat your claims

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

Of course you don't address that either

If they were declared righteous did they not do good

How can you ever hope to understand if you don't read replies

and deal with them

and you totally omitted

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping (refering to Roman 3}

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Hello

How is righteous by faith even possible if no one can understand or believe

Your interpretation is contrary to the context




as well as the link below

https://forums.carm.org/threads/preaching-the-gospel.560/post-187895

which of course you don't address either

Not reading and not addressing rebuttal is not a nethod to arrive at truth in a discussion

PS you ignore many plain verses as well showing men can believe

John 1:7 (KJV)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 17:20 (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 2:23 (KJV)
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 4:39 (KJV)
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 4:41-42 (KJV)
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

You need to stop fighting scripture and believe
 
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Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Now You were told multiple time the phrase children of men is used in a manner to indicate non Jews - those who were not in a covenant with God

"non Jews"? That's what you are going with now? This is daffier than the "law" in trying to justify your contradiction. One thing you sadly have convinced me of is that you love your dogma more than truth!

"non Jews"..........do you realize it makes no difference? Jew......Gentile.......BOTH are born into this world as children of men....unregenerate children of men; a consequence of the fall. Only one was "born" into this world as a child of God and that is Jesus, The Son of God. All mankind is born corrupt, whether Jew or Gentile and needs to be regenerated to life. Not so with the beloved Savior and spotless Lamb of God.

Do you see how silly your latest attempt to cover, muddle, cloud, hide, obscure the contradiction you have with your theology? Why don't you just admit you have a contradiction? You will never correct your theology until you do.

Ok, I'll run with your latest........Gentiles/non Jews you say are the ones identified in the 14th Psalm. You know the ones who know nothing, do not seek God, evildoers, fools that say, 'there is no God', and......and the coup de grace to your theology...... do NOTHING GOOD, no , not a single one of them.

So, tell me.....what is the process for them to be saved? Surely you are not going to tell me Gentiles cannot be saved? Non Jews are beyond redemption? Hope not.

So, walk me through the process.......OK? Oh, and please do not contradict the word of God that is declared about, these so called, non Jews you have identified. You have been avoiding this request.....probably because you realize that anything you say will contradict the word of God and you do not want to face your dilemma.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
"non Jews"? That's what you are going with now? This is daffier than the "law" in trying to justify your contradiction. One thing you sadly have convinced me of is that you love your dogma more than truth!
Once again you address nothing interact with nothing

Now You were told multiple time the phrase children of men is used in a manner to indicate non Jews - those who were not in a covenant with God

Not all mankind

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

The children of men are those who are not David's people i.e, non jews men not in covenant

as was noted previously

Once again you address nothing

and in psalm 14

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There are two parties here the children of men and My people - the generation of the righteous Jews like David

Did you address ?



in Psalms 14 as I already told you once before read

Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites

you failed to address this and just repeat your claims

Now additionally all the following were declared righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

Of course you don't address that either

If they were declared righteous did they not do good

How can you ever hope to understand if you don't read replies

and deal with them

and you totally omitted

The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)

doing good by law keeping (refering to Roman 3}

your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows

in the same chapter as well as the next

after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible

Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

according to law no one is righteous no one does good

but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Abraham being an example

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Hello

How is righteous by faith even possible if no one can understand or believe

Your interpretation is contrary to the context




as well as the link below

https://forums.carm.org/threads/preaching-the-gospel.560/post-187895

which of course you don't address either

Not reading and not addressing rebuttal is not a nethod to arrive at truth in a discussion

PS you ignore many plain verses as well showing men can believe

John 1:7 (KJV)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 17:20 (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 2:23 (KJV)
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 4:39 (KJV)
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 4:41-42 (KJV)
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

You need to stop fighting scripture and believe

...........................................

all you have done is assumed a meaning for the phrase children of men ignoring it used in a manner to note those other than Jews who were in covenant with God

Just as you ignore the fact many were declared righteous many were stated to have believed

The latter being how one was declared righteous

None of these text mention regeneration none make it an exception

If what you imagine were true there would be no one declared righteoust

none which were stated to have done right


"did right"


1 Kings 15:5
The Lexham English Bible
because David did right in the eyes of Yahweh and he didn’t turn aside from all that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

1 Kings 15:11
The Lexham English Bible
Asa did right in the eyes of Yahweh, like David his ancestor.

2 Kings 12:2
The Lexham English Bible
Jehoash did right in the eyes of Yahweh all of his days, because Jehoiada the priest instructed him.

2 Kings 14:3
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh, only not as David his ancestor; as all that Jehoash his father had done, he did.

2 Kings 15:3
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh, according to all that Amaziah his father had done.

2 Kings 18:3
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh according to all that David his ancestor had done.

2 Kings 22:2
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh, and he walked in all of the way of David his ancestor and did not turn aside to the right or to the left.

Jer 34:15
The Lexham English Bible
And you turned back recently and you did right in my eyes, to proclaim release each one to his neighbor, and you made a covenant before me in the house that is called by my name.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Only one was "born" into this world as a child of God and that is Jesus, The Son of God.
Really what chapter and verse refers to Jesus as a " child of God" ???????????????????

conclusion: say what you mean and mean what you say with SCRIPTURE to back up your claims.

next...................................................................................................................................................................

hope this helps !!!
 
G

guest1

Guest
Is a son no longer a child now? He's the firstborn among many brethren.

Of all the places to disagree I certainly wouldn't pick that one.
and that is not the same as a child of God hence my question.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Unregenerate children of men know nothing and do nothing.

Well, I'm not brainwashed, so I know better. Faith is Trust. It comes from knowing after hearing. Do you have faith that the earth is round, or that it is flat? Does an atheist believe the earth is round or flat? Romans 10:17
 
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G

guest1

Guest
The Son of God is a Divine Title and Unique to Christ alone as God the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

You need to brush up on the Trinity. He in the monogenes ( One of a kind, only ) Son of God.

hope this helps !!!
 
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