Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Was Jesus a baby at one time in His life? Yes or no? The correct answer proves me correct and thus the reason you will probably not answer it. But we will see.
Faith before regeneration is impossible
- Thread starter Oldsaint24
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Oldsaint24
Well-known member
"There is no one who does good, no, not a single one of them."
You can write ten thousand words but your cannot nullify the few I just wrote that proves your understanding of the ten thousand is wrong!
What can't you grasp? What can't you comprehend? "There is NO ONE who does good, no, not a single one of them." Those words referring to children of men. What is so hard?
Obviously your many, many words are NOT referring to children of men. Simple as that!
G
guest1
Guest
Said the king of excuses and the one who is void of scripture and resorts to human wisdom and understanding.
hope this helps !!!
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
I knew you would not answer my very very very simple question. You should ask yourself.....why won't I ever answer a simple question?
T
TomFL
Guest
Kind of funny how you accuse others of not answering
when you continue to ignore all that was put to you here
.......................
Now You were told multiple time the phrase children of men is used in a manner to indicate non Jews - those who were not in a covenant with God
Not all mankind
Psalm 14:1-5 (KJV)
1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
The children of men are those who are not David's people i.e, non jews men not in covenant
as was noted previously
There are two parties here the children of men and My people - the generation of the righteous Jews like David
the children of men is used in distinction from the Israelites
you failed to address this and just repeat your claims
Now additionally all the following were declared righteous
Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12
Lot - 2 Peter 2:7
Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1
Job - Job 1:1; 34:5
Abraham - Galatians 3:6
Lydia - Acts 16:14
Cornelius - Acts 10:22
Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6
Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6
Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50
Simeon Luke 2:25
Enoch Hebrews 11:5
Of course you don't address that either
If they were declared righteous did they not do good ?
How can you ever hope to understand if you don't read replies
and deal with them
and you totally omitted
The passage is speaking of law addressing those under the law (see bolded verse below)
doing good by law keeping (refering to Roman 3}
your interpretation is contrary to what Paul shows
in the same chapter as well as the next
after showing righteousness by law keeping is impossible
Romans 3:19-26 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
according to law no one is righteous no one does good
but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Abraham being an example
Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Hello
How is righteous by faith even possible if no one can understand or believe
Your interpretation is contrary to the context
as well as the link below
https://forums.carm.org/threads/preaching-the-gospel.560/post-187895
which of course you don't address either
Not reading and not addressing rebuttal is not a method to arrive at truth in a discussion
PS you ignore many plain verses as well showing men can believe
John 1:7 (KJV)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 17:20 (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 2:23 (KJV)
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
John 4:39 (KJV)
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
John 4:41-42 (KJV)
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
You need to stop fighting scripture and believe
...........................................
all you have done is assumed a meaning for the phrase children of men ignoring it used in a manner to note those other than Jews who were in covenant with God
Just as you ignore the fact many were declared righteous many were stated to have believed
The latter being how one was declared righteous
None of these text mention regeneration none make it an exception
If what you imagine were true there would be no one declared righteoust
none which were stated to have done right
"did right"
1 Kings 15:5
The Lexham English Bible
because David did right in the eyes of Yahweh and he didn’t turn aside from all that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
1 Kings 15:11
The Lexham English Bible
Asa did right in the eyes of Yahweh, like David his ancestor.
2 Kings 12:2
The Lexham English Bible
Jehoash did right in the eyes of Yahweh all of his days, because Jehoiada the priest instructed him.
2 Kings 14:3
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh, only not as David his ancestor; as all that Jehoash his father had done, he did.
2 Kings 15:3
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh, according to all that Amaziah his father had done.
2 Kings 18:3
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh according to all that David his ancestor had done.
2 Kings 22:2
The Lexham English Bible
He did right in the eyes of Yahweh, and he walked in all of the way of David his ancestor and did not turn aside to the right or to the left.
Jer 34:15
The Lexham English Bible
And you turned back recently and you did right in my eyes, to proclaim release each one to his neighbor, and you made a covenant before me in the house that is called by my name.
What can't you grasp
roman 3 is not talking about believing the gospel
but Paul then introduces righteousness which is by faith
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
G
guest1
Guest
Gone the way of Cain.
nuff said about answering a simple question .
what’s good for the goose is good for the gander
Theo1689
Well-known member
So who else thinks a certain poster here should add an avatar of Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown?
Or perhaps that pic of Robert Conrad with the Duracell on his shoulder?
G
guest1
Guest
I second it !So who else thinks a certain poster here should add an avatar of Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown?
Or perhaps that pic of Robert Conrad with the Duracell on his shoulder?
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
False post. I said.....start an op. You can even call me out specifically if you want. I will gladly participate. I want you accountable. Calvinists have a nasty bent for leaving a dialogue when they are confronted with something they will not or cannot answer.
So again....start an op and make your case.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Not sure why the first post was completely edited.....but here is the proof.....
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born......
Luke 2 " You will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloth, lying in a manger.......and when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the CHILD, His name was called Jesus."
Luke 12. "When He (Jesus) was twelve years old.......the BOY Jesus lingered behind....."
There......you are corrected and my statement stands true.
G
guest1
Guest
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
You are a funny guy.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Still no "child of God"? Really? You are sticking with that position?
Here's what you ought to do......start an OP. Title your OP......
"Jesus was never a child of God!"
That is your position and tell us all why.....Jesus was never a child of God.
T
TomFL
Guest
Back to the op
Faith before the new birth is scriptural
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Faith before the new birth is scriptural
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Your will note that in 1 Peter 1:3 it was written ......"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy HAS CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope........."
This precedes your chosen verse. Did you notice the "caused us to be born again"?
Now just what do you think God did to "cause us to be born again"? Spiritual regeneration is what the Father caused us to be born again.
Look at it this way........in our first birth we have conception. Which is a sovereign act of your parents and you had nothing to do with it. Are you "born again" at the moment of conception? No. Likewise with the second birth. One must be spiritually alive......conceived....before they can ever be born.......correct?
This is the truth concerning all your selected verses that you say/claim are regeneration. They are not. All you verses are about the growth and maturity of the newly alive children of God who must grow and mature and convert to believing in Jesus.
Regeneration gives the spiritual life; the eyes and ears to see and hear the divine truths. Regeneration gives the newly alive child of God the ability to exercise faith. A spiritually dead child of man cannot exercise "faith". Jesus tells us that!
This understanding has no contradictions with the teachings of Jesus or the Word of God. Your theology of "faith before regeneration" does contradict the teachings of Jesus and the word of God.
And I don't understand when I show your truth in the scriptures that has no contradictions and show you that your theology has contradictions....you prefer glom on to your error like a dog and his bone. Even a semi intelligent dog would relinquish his old dried up bone for a piece of steak. And steak is what I've been offering you.
T
TomFL
Guest
You fail to understand
There are two decisions here
Man's to believe
God's to regenerate
If you read the verses supplied
You will see the gospel and thus faith in it precedes the new birth
1 Peter 1:23 (ESV)
23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
It is true, you are correct, there are TWO EVENTS. One, man believes. Two, God regenerates.
You simply have the order wrong and thus the reason you have a big 'ole contradiction in your theology. Got that? Your order of events creates a contradiction with scripture. Whereas mine does not have any contradiction.....none.
The spiritually dead man does not and cannot exercise faith. That is the reason that by necessity regeneration must come first. One must have eyes and ears to see and hear. God's truths are spiritually discerned.
But if you want to keep chewing on that 'ole dried up bone......have at it. Myself......I prefer steak.
Just what is it that you refuse to accept that God determines who His children are? Why do you insist that the ultimate means of ones eternal destiny is in the singular decision of mere mortal men?
Let me put this scenario forth for you to ponder........God the Father comes to you and asks, "TomFL, do you want the eternal destiny of men to be in their hands and decision making ability or..........or do you want me to determine who is to be one of my children?
What is your answer to that question? Keep in mind as you ponder and I think we are in agreement that God the Father is perfect and the epitome of love. And men on the other hand is .....are.......well quite corrupt and self serving and such. So what would be your decision? God or man?
T
TomFL
Guest
Sorry but you show no contradiction nor do you address the scripture posted
If you read the verses supplied
You will see the gospel and thus faith in it precedes the new birth
1 Peter 1:23 (ESV)
23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/preaching-the-gospel.560/post-187895
and a whole lot more
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:
“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
John 5:40
“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”
John 6:53
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”
John 6:57
“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 15:9
“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 12:36
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”
Galatians 3:2, 5
“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”
T
TomFL
Guest
Part 2
You assume dead like Lazarus but the bible never associates the story about Lazarus with soteriology
On the other hand is the prodigal son
He was dead separated from the Father
Luke 15:24 (KJV)
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Reunion with the father is making alive of the son who was dead
corresponding to lost and found
The church at Sardis was dead and told to repent
Revelation 3:1 (KJV)
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Eph 2 after speaking of being dead in trespass goes on to expound
Ephesians 2:11-13 (KJV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in with the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
spiritual death is separation from God due to rebellion
being made alive is being made nigh
Other than that trust is not ascertained by what one wants but what the word of God says
You have many verses you need to deal with which are contrary to your beliefs
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Oh my gosh.......sooooooo many words. And the few I wrote in the OP contradicts them all........because you have the order reversed.
And you simply fail to realize that all your many verses of scripture apply to children of God and NOT children of men. Applying all your verses to God's children eliminates any and all contrdictins with Divine Truth. Applying the passages to children of men CREATES YOUR CONTRADICTION WITH SCRIPTURE (and I am not yelling just emphasizing).