Faith in Christ and his election. What is the believer's election?

Tercon

Active member
If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?
No...
 

civic

Well-known member
If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?
1- you really jacked up Gods word in your 2nd sentence.

2- Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

3- your 3rd sentence is new age gobblygook.

4- your 4th sentence is unbiblical nonsense.

5- God does not have faith not does God believe for us.

Are you a new age mystic ?

hope this helps !!!
 

Tercon

Active member
Insults removed

1- you really jacked up Gods word in your 2nd sentence.

I said: 'If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?'

If you found something else other than the truth in Christ that brought you to the 'realization of God the Father', then you did NOT get the Holy Spirit and Spirit of truth that lead me to the reality of God the Father. If you got something else, then say what you got other than this?

2- Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That's right, that's what it says and this is what it means: If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known is in and by a believing mind, then that means the truth and reality can only be known to exist in and by a believing mind. And outside of a believing mind the truth and reality cannot be known or known to exist. Therefore, the truth and reality must be the product of God's believing mind. And if you cannot show of another way or place that possesses the capacity of belief other than a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. But if you think it's something else, then say what you think it is.

3- your 3rd sentence is new age gobblygook.

I said: 'If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?'

Well what did you find in Christ, if it wasn't 'the truth' that you as 'believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God', what did you find if it wasn't this?

4- your 4th sentence is unbiblical nonsense.

5- God does not have faith not does God believe for us.

'If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?'

Insults removed

Are you a new age mystic ?

Insults removed

hope this helps !!!

Insults removed
 
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If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?
Why would Christ believe for us?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?
I believe Christ kept the law for His People, which would include loving and believing in God. Certainly Jesus kept to the weightier matters of the Law Matt 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Lk 11:42


But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So as much as Faith was needed to keep the law for His People, yes He believed God for them. But if you mean did He believe in Himself for them, in the matter of Salvation, I would say no, but He gave them His Faith, a portion of it, when He quickened them by His Spirit, and they do believe as a result. So even though He didnt believe for them, He gave of riches of Grace, the grace for them to believe in Him, they believe in Him because of Him !
 

Tercon

Active member
Why would Christ believe for us?

In whereas that's a part of what he done for us in reality, as when we were unbelievers and couldn't believe for ourselves, then in him believing he was dying for the sins of man, he didn't just die for us, but in reality he had to believe he was dying on our behalf. So, that would entail believing for us as well, that's why it is referred to as Christ's faith first before it becomes ours, because that original belief and faith came from Christ and not us at all.

If you don't believe your faith and origin belief didn't come from Christ and God, then where did it originate from to begin with, do you think man was the first to believe or have faith? God is the original believing mind.
 

Tercon

Active member
I believe Christ kept the law for His People, which would include loving and believing in God. Certainly Jesus kept to the weightier matters of the Law

Yes of course, but Christ is God because he is truth itself. So, in being the truth itself when he believed and died for us it wasn't like another human believing and dying for someone other than themselves. But as being truth itself Christ in believing and dying for us in reality he was literally believing and dying for us. That's why belief is involuntary, as the truth itself advocates on our behalf and forces us to believe it. Or if you prefer in him being the truth itself he believes for us.

Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Lk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And all along all that was required is a belief in order to make the reality of God known to us.

So as much as Faith was needed to keep the law for His People, yes He believed God for them. But if you mean did He believe in Himself for them, in the matter of Salvation, I would say no, but He gave them His Faith, a portion of it, when He quickened them by His Spirit, and they do believe as a result. So even though He didnt believe for them, He gave of riches of Grace, the grace for them to believe in Him, they believe in Him because of Him !

But you are not taking in consideration the implication of who and what he is in the reality of God. Christ literally embodies the truth in reality, because the truth is a part of what it is to be God, as like logic, morality, consciousness and existence itself are just the product or the extension and intention of God's believing mind. And in Christ being the truth itself, and in him believing and dying on our behalf for the salvation of man, his belief and death became a manifest part of the reality of God.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes of course, but Christ is God because he is truth itself. So, in being the truth itself when he believed and died for us it wasn't like another human believing and dying for someone other than themselves. But as being truth itself Christ in believing and dying for us in reality he was literally believing and dying for us. That's why belief is involuntary, as the truth itself advocates on our behalf and forces us to believe it. Or if you prefer in him being the truth itself he believes for us.



And all along all that was required is a belief in order to make the reality of God known to us.



But you are not taking in consideration the implication of who and what he is in the reality of God. Christ literally embodies the truth in reality, because the truth is a part of what it is to be God, as like logic, morality, consciousness and existence itself are just the product or the extension and intention of God's believing mind. And in Christ being the truth itself, and in him believing and dying on our behalf for the salvation of man, his belief and death became a manifest part of the reality of God.
I have said my peace.
 
In whereas that's a part of what he done for us in reality, as when we were unbelievers and couldn't believe for ourselves, then in him believing he was dying for the sins of man, he didn't just die for us, but in reality he had to believe he was dying on our behalf. So, that would entail believing for us as well, that's why it is referred to as Christ's faith first before it becomes ours, because that original belief and faith came from Christ and not us at all.

If you don't believe your faith and origin belief didn't come from Christ and God, then where did it originate from to begin with, do you think man was the first to believe or have faith? God is the original believing mind.
What scripture are you getting your view from regarding Christ believing for us?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What scripture are you getting your view from regarding Christ believing for us?

I've got that particular poster on ignore, but maybe I can shed some light on this:

Gal. 2:16 ... a man is ... justified ... by the faith of Jesus Christ, (KJV)
Gal. 2:16 ... a person is ... justified .... through faith in Jesus Christ, (ESV)
Gal. 2:16 ... a man is ... justified ... through faith in Christ Jesus, (NASB)
Gal. 2:16 ... one is justified ... by faith in Jesus Christ. (HCSB)
Gal. 2:16 ... one is justified ... by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. (NET)

The NET notes indicate that "faith in Jesus Christ" is a valid alternate reading of the Greek. Greek scholars A.T. Robertson and Dan Wallace (I'm assuming, behind the NET) note that Jesus Christ, "IEsou Xristou" is in the genitive case, and is the "objective genitive", which is brought out by the rendering, "faith in Jesus Christ".

The point is that that there are multiple alternative interpretations of the KJV rendering where we don't have to hold that "Jesus believes for us".
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I've got that particular poster on ignore, but maybe I can shed some light on this:

Gal. 2:16 ... a man is ... justified ... by the faith of Jesus Christ, (KJV)
Gal. 2:16 ... a person is ... justified .... through faith in Jesus Christ, (ESV)
Gal. 2:16 ... a man is ... justified ... through faith in Christ Jesus, (NASB)
Gal. 2:16 ... one is justified ... by faith in Jesus Christ. (HCSB)
Gal. 2:16 ... one is justified ... by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. (NET)

The NET notes indicate that "faith in Jesus Christ" is a valid alternate reading of the Greek. Greek scholars A.T. Robertson and Dan Wallace (I'm assuming, behind the NET) note that Jesus Christ, "IEsou Xristou" is in the genitive case, and is the "objective genitive", which is brought out by the rendering, "faith in Jesus Christ".

The point is that that there are multiple alternative interpretations of the KJV rendering where we don't have to hold that "Jesus believes for us".



16. Is not justified (ou dikaioutai). Present passive indicative of dikaioō, an old causative verb from dikaios, righteous (from dike, right), to make righteous, to declare righteous. It is made like axioō, to deem worthy, and koinoō, to consider common. It is one of the great Pauline words along with dikaiosunē, righteousness. The two ways of getting right with God are here set forth: by faith in Christ Jesus (objective genitive), b
 
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You mention in this post that "it must be through faith in the gospel we are born again." Are you under the impression that it's your faith or God's given faith? Are you under the impression that God gives man faith, and then they are born again after hearing the gospel?

You also state "repentance the flip side of faith precedes life - regeneration" How can you repent without the The Spirit? If I can repent in a manner consistent with Godly sorrow, it's because I've already been regenerated by The Spirit in me, hence the repentance.

Otherwise, it sounds like works. D you believe in saving grace by works?
 
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I've got that particular poster on ignore, but maybe I can shed some light on this:

Gal. 2:16 ... a man is ... justified ... by the faith of Jesus Christ, (KJV)
Gal. 2:16 ... a person is ... justified .... through faith in Jesus Christ, (ESV)
Gal. 2:16 ... a man is ... justified ... through faith in Christ Jesus, (NASB)
Gal. 2:16 ... one is justified ... by faith in Jesus Christ. (HCSB)
Gal. 2:16 ... one is justified ... by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. (NET)

The NET notes indicate that "faith in Jesus Christ" is a valid alternate reading of the Greek. Greek scholars A.T. Robertson and Dan Wallace (I'm assuming, behind the NET) note that Jesus Christ, "IEsou Xristou" is in the genitive case, and is the "objective genitive", which is brought out by the rendering, "faith in Jesus Christ".

The point is that that there are multiple alternative interpretations of the KJV rendering where we don't have to hold that "Jesus believes for us".
I see...

So the view is: because it's the faith OF Christ, Christ believes FOR us, since we are incapable of belief in and of our own ....

I think I see why someone might think so but it sounds a bit inappropriate for expressing the work of God in his people and seems inconsistent with OT prophecy.
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
If Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And no man can come to the realization of God the Father if not through embodying of the truth that is found in Christ. And if the Christian faith consists of the truth believers find in Christ in believing in and about the reality of God, then wouldn't our first believing Christ died for us consist of and include him believing for us as well?

Could you restate this? It might just be me, but it seems like a convoluted statement.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You mention in this post that "it must be through faith in the gospel we are born again." Are you under the impression that it's your faith or God's given faith? Are you under the impression that God gives man faith, and then they are born again after hearing the gospel?

You also state "repentance the flip side of faith precedes life - regeneration" How can you repent without the The Spirit? If I can repent in a manner consistent with Godly sorrow, it's because I've already been regenerated by The Spirit in me, hence the repentance.

Otherwise, it sounds like works. D you believe in saving grace by works?
Neither faith or repentance are works

Faith looks to another rather than oneself it is therefore not works

The merit is not in you but the one in whom you have faith

scripture is clear

Rom. 4:16 —KJV
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”

Rom. 5:2 —KJV
“By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

Rom. 3:27 —KJV
“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”

God gave to man the ability for faith and he gives both opportunity and influence

He does not believe for anyone

and he does not irresistibly infuse faith in some while withholding it for others

Faith is a personal commitment to entrust oneself to the object of ones faith
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Neither faith or repentance are works

Faith looks to another rather than oneself it is therefore not works

The merit is not in you but the one in whom you have faith

scripture is clear

Rom. 4:16 —KJV
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”

Rom. 5:2 —KJV
“By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

Rom. 3:27 —KJV
“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”

God gave to man the ability for faith and he gives both opportunity and influence

He does not believe for anyone

and he does not irresistibly infuse faith in some while withholding it for others

Faith is a personal commitment to entrust oneself to the object of ones faith
Yes you make them meritorious works since to you they are conditions man must meet/perform in order for Christ to save them .
 
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