Faith that saves Is never alone?

Bonnie

Super Member
https://forums.carm.org/goto/post?id=46374

I would like to ask Theo--or anyone--what do they believe is added to faith alone in obtaining salvation?
May I answer?--in OBTAINING SALVATION--nothing! It isn't OUR works that save us, but JESUS' works done on the cross for us, that save us--isn't it, dberrie? Haven't we stated over and over again that the good works that follow are the FRUIT of salvation, so, while faith and good works are certainly connected, that doesn't mean that they have the same function IN salvation. Remember what BJBear wrote years ago to you?

Round and round you go....... obviously in spite of knowing you are just clinging to a wrong strawman.

You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, beleived or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify.

"This is the work of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."

And I do. That faith leads me to want to obey Jesus from the heart, not out of compulsion, but out of desire born of being a new creation in Christ Jesus my Lord and God and Savior.

But we have answered this before, haven't we? Can a dead faith enable a person to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation? Yes or no? Isn't faith in Jesus Christ the gift of God? Does God give dead gifts to His children?

From Bob Carrabio on the old boards:

Bob--WELL HEY!!!! Dragging out your "favorite Proof text" again to get the same 'ol stuff started on the new forum?? What does Eph 2:8,9 say about it, and what's your "Work-around"???

DO you SERIOUSLY DARE to add your filthy works to the perfect SIN OFFERING (Isa 53) of Jesus on the Cross for salvation??"


and

The OBVIOUS ANSWER is that "SAVING FAITH" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Works" (since the "Works" of a lost person are filthy and worthless), BUT BECOMING SAVED BY FAITH will inevitably RESULT in "Works" moving forward. The "Works", however HAVE NOTHING TO DO with salvation, and are simply the Result / Fruit of it.
Melancthon taught: "It is FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES, but the FAITH that saves will never be alone."
You question with the reference makes no sense at all.

Three Scriptures to consider:
What IS Biblical Faith - Heb 11:1
How do we receive Biblical faith - Rom 10:17
How do we APPLY Biblical faith Mark 11:22-24

If what you "THINK" is Biblical faith doesn't have BOTH ATTRIBUTES fully present, as listed in Heb 11:1, then it's NOT "Biblical faith" at all.

(sorry about the large printing; that is how it got saved to my archive file)

And from BJBear:

That view {salvation by faith with works} is based upon the world view of the pagan philosophers rather than true Christian doctrine found in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. It is a view which understands love to be a self centered love, for example, love the good if you get something good out of it. And it is a view that exemplifies distributed justification, that is, to the extent that a man is just is the extent to which he is justified.

The true Christian doctrine found in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures is that God is agape, that is, love in a particular Christian sense that is not self centered. We love, agape, God because he first loved, agape, us. That love, agape, which he created in us is the love with which the believers in the true Christ love, agape, our neighbor. It works because that is the nature of agape. It does not work out of self interest or gain or the compulsion of law.

Jacob was not writing of Christian faith which works through love, agape, when he wrote of a faith without works. Since that is not true Christian faith he asked if such a faith can save him? The obvious answer is no as the love of God in the true Christ Jesus, the agape of God in the true Christ Jesus, saves through faith alone.

The true Christian doctrine found in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures regarding the justification from God is that it is declarative based upon the Sacrifice, the sacrifice of the true Jesus, through faith alone.


And from Saint and Sinner, who is no longer on the boards:

J and S--How is it you misunderstand this?

Faith that saves is not alone. Notice it doesn't say anything else before saves like works or a killer chili recipe?. Faith is the saving factor. What's with it (should you have it) is the holy spirit and the grace that are working with faith and received in, as well as the good fruit that comes from it.

Done now?
Edit: also...the Good fruit aren't ours they are God's we do them through faith. The grace isn't ours we receive it through faith...it's God's to give. The Holy Spirit isn't our either...He proceeds from the Son and works in us, for God. Not for us.

Works come as a result of faith (faith isn't alone it has good fruits with it) explained many times...
no we don't add anything. That faith....that saves....is not alone and we don't add anything to it. Faith comes with or receives the holy spirit, grace and good fruits...(good fruits are the outward sign of this faith) or good works. It's not alone God and his will , Grace and good works before him are part of faith. But it is the saving faith....that brings them.

So no it doesn't mean we are saved in dead faith. Dead faith is the lack of good fruit . Just like a tree. No one is saved with dead faith. Nothing is added to it but what comes with it is received upon having faith. Therefore it is not alone, but it is itself the faith that saves.
I am not sure who wrote the following, though I suspect it was BJBear, but I put it down for our edification:

(Mormon poster)--"The question remains--what do Lutherans believe is added to a saving faith to prevent it from being alone?"

The answer:
Let's see - this'll be the umpteenth time that you've been told, and it went right over your head, and smashed against your paradigmatic wall.

The answer quite simply is: "the fruit of faith" - those things that Faith because of it's intrinsic nature causes in the behavior of the on in whom FAITH DWELLS.

This is, of course the gist of the Book of James summed up in his examples - i.e. Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Put simply, James simply says that IF what you "CALL FAITH" produces NOTHING of practical value, then it's DEAD - NOT Biblical FAITH at all.

Bottom line (Melancthon's dictum) It IS FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH that SAVES - is never alone. "Works" are NOT salvific. FAITH is.
The stuff below from me got put into quote box, not sure why.
But what does "with" mean? It means "accompanied by." It does not mean "in addition to" or "added to." So a faith NOT accompanied by works is dead and not a true Biblical saving faith at all.

NOW--What did Jesus say here ACTUALLY SAVED THE WOMAN?

"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7:50)

What is it that Jesus said SAVED her? Did He add anything to that one word as to what saved her?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Works are not "added" to faith.
They proceed FROM faith.

Eph. 2:8-10 and James 2 explain this very well.
Absolutely! We do good works BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET saved. Doing them for the latter reason is selfish and there is no love in selfishness, is there?

You had something on the Mormon board about "causation" and how some misunderstand this. Could you please repeat that on here?

But see my post above, all of the stuff I have archived about this over the years. They prove that we have dealt with this I don't know how many times, answered the poster's questions many times, but our answers are treated as if we had not answered at all, and our points go un-dealt with, and our Bible verses get ignored. I can only suppose it is out of fear. Fear of the truth. Sad, indeed, when Jesus said the truth will set us free.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Haven't we stated over and over again that the good works that follow are the FRUIT of salvation, so, while faith and good works are certainly connected, that doesn't mean that they have the same function IN salvation. Remember what BJBear wrote years ago to you?
I remember what the testimony of the Savior is:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Could you explain for us why the Savior testified the fruits are connected to one entering the Kingdom of God--and you exclude all works in entering the Kingdom of God?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I didn't make any claim about works being added to faith.




So--what are you claiming is added to faith in being saved?

This is what is added to a person from God -given gift of faith

Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work.
Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5).
Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8).
Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11).

Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20).
The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6).
The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10).
Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27),
love their brothers (1 John 3:14),
obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14),
do the will of God (Matthew 12:50),
abide in God's Word (John 8:31),
keep God's Word (John 17:6),
do good works (Ephesians 2:10),
and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14)

Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22).
They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23).

Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith.
Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3)


 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Absolutely! We do good works BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET saved.
Is your claim these were saved prior to the Blood of Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
This is what is added to a person from God -given gift of faith

Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20).
The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6).
The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10).
Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27),
love their brothers (1 John 3:14),
obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14),
do the will of God (Matthew 12:50),
abide in God's Word (John 8:31),
keep God's Word (John 17:6),
do good works (Ephesians 2:10),
and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14)

Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22).
They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23).

Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith.
Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3)
Hi 1Thess:

I don't disagree with any of that.

But those are things which the faith alone commonly agree is post saved gifts.

The comment I posted to was this one:

See also Luther's comment:

"We are saved by faith alone;
But a faith that saves is never alone."

What I'm interested in is what the faith alone adds to faith in being saved.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"This is the work of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."
How are you using that to preclude the connection between keeping the commandments and eternal life?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

IOW--is keeping the commandments a belief in God? Are they integral to one another?

Is walking in the light--integral to belief in God?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Is bringing forth fruit--integral to believing in Christ?

Romans 6:22:---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting lif

Or--does a belief in Christ preclude all those verses?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Hi 1Thess:

I don't disagree with any of that.

But those are things which the faith alone commonly agree is post saved gifts.

The comment I posted to was this one:




What I'm interested in is what the faith alone adds to faith in being saved.
your question is awkwardly worded:

do you mean what is added to the person along with faith
pr what is added to faith?

IOW: is the person the object or is faith the object to which something will be added?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
your question is awkwardly worded:

do you mean what is added to the person along with faith
pr what is added to faith?

IOW: is the person the object or is faith the object to which something will be added?
Did you read the post I commented on?
Theo1689 said:
See also Luther's comment:

"We are saved by faith alone;
But a faith that saves is never alone."

It's what is added to faith in one being saved.

1Thess--I don't believe you might be missing the core of the point. Nothing wrong with that.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Did you read the post I commented on?


It's what is added to faith in one being saved.

1Thess--I don't believe you might be missing the core of the point. Nothing wrong with that.

many, many things are added to the person being saved; examples are given in post #8
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
and none of them are salvific

So--is a faith without works a salvific faith?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
So--is a faith without works a salvific faith?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
if the faith is a God-given faith : then it saves
mere mental assent (intellectual belief) does not save

God does not give us a faith that is useless (v20)
God does not give us a faith that is dead (v17)
God does not give us the faith of demons (v19)


You Can Understand The Bible: A Practical And Illuminating Guide To Each Book In The Bible
By Peter Kreeft (Catholic author)

Pages 291-292
http://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Understand-The-Bible/dp/1586170457#reader_1586170457
-----------------
quoting
"Actually, James' point is very clear and simple, it is not a contrast between faith and works but between a real faith, a faith that works, and a fake faith, one that does not. "Show me your faith apart from your works, and by my works will show you my faith."

We do not see a living plant's roots, only its fruits. Others cannot see your faith, for it is invisible.

They can see only your actions, which show your faith as a tulip flower shows you that a tulip bulb has taken root The apparent contradiction between James, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by works (2: 21), and Paul, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by faith (Rom 4), is explained by looking at the context.

Paul's context is the relationship between the believer and God,
while James' context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.


God sees your faith; your neighbor sees your works. Faith justifies us before God; works justify us before our neighbors.

A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief. “You believe that God is one; you do well.
Even the demons believe—and shudder” (2:19).
But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief.
He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit."

end quote
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