Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Except that you said the opposite, but obviously cant see it.
Faith that saves Is never alone?
- Thread starter dberrie2020
- Start date
Stephen
Active member
Do you believe there is a case where there is faith without works?
"The third-cause fallacy (also known as ignoring a common cause or questionable cause)
is a logical fallacy where a spurious relationship is confused for causation.
It asserts that X causes Y when, in reality, X and Y are both caused by Z.
It is a variation on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy and a member of the questionable cause group of fallacies."
Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Z= faith
X = works
Y= salvation
Nobody has asserted this fallacy.
As a matter of fact it was specifically rejected in different form a couple of posts up.
Stephen
Active member
Please gain some form of reading comprehension and then an understanding of prepositional logic and then re-read my posts.
Given the high probability of failure of you achieving the first part answer me this: Can somebody have faith without works?
1Thess521
Well-known member
immediately after accepting the God-given gift of a saving faith
Death bed conversions:
someone poorly discipled
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
As Spurgeon once said: "Any FAITH that doesn't CHANGE a person - won't save them either". And it was Philip Melancthon that said "It is Faith ALONE that saves - but the Faith that saves will never be alone".
SInce "Works" Are the inevitable PRODUCT of FAITH, then the answer would be "NO". The "Works" however CONTRIBUTE NOTHING to Salvation, but are simply the normal RESULT of Biblical Faith.
~90% of what "Religious people" CALL "FAITH" isn't FAITH at all - just "Religious hot air".
Stephen
Active member
Theo will be along to condemn you now. . . . or he wont as he says below. The book of James doesn't acknowledge such a case as having faith.
As Theo states . . .
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Stephen
Active member
Well now that you are caught up to the class, can you dispense with accusing me of saying the opposite?
That is true.
1Thess521
Well-known member
Context:
I have read Theo's comments:
we are in agreement:
He was talking about people claiming to have faith and having no desire to do works:
I was discussing deathbed conversions and the moments after coming to faith
The Thief on the Cross did not have an opportunity for work prior to his death
I came to a saving faith. alone, in my room, at night: i did not do any works until later
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dberrie2020
Well-known member
Verse 24 means they will not be judged unto condemnation:
John 5:24---King James Version
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The Savior testified all men will be judged--after death--and that for life or damnation:
John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Matthew 16:27----King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Christians included:
2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Then handle 1 Cor 3:15
1Thess521
Well-known member
Read the verse you posted and answer
What is the reason given as to why
- some one has eternal life.
- He does not come into condemnation,
- but has passed from death to life.
rewards are earned: salvation is not
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
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Stephen
Active member
First, let's read it. I'll post the entire paragraph for convenience.
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
In the passage Paul takes it for granted that each person does works regardless of the qualify of each person's work. There is no case in the passage where there is no work is performed.
What do you wish me to "handle" as the passage confirms what I've been saying?
Stephen
Active member
The logical cases were identical, a case where there is faith without works.
A deathbed confession is pragmatic faithlessness. Don't get me wrong, I wish for them to be in the kingdom, but I would have grave doubts about affirming they would be.
The thief was right there beside Christ on the cross suffering with him and proclaiming him and encouraging our Lord at his darkest hour despite his own personal pain and humiliation. He wasn't there because he wanted to be, but being there did pretty well with what he had.
You may have have had a faith that saves, you may have not. All we can say is that you have made a choice at that moment and stuck to it. As Luther and others stated, the faith that saves is never alone.
1Thess521
Well-known member
Stephen
Active member
There is no salvific efficacy in works without faith. (as stated more than once in this thread)
There is no salvific efficacy in faith without works (as this is a logically impossible case. The faith that saves is never alone.)
1Thess521
Well-known member
and there we go : the logical fallacy you said nobody has asserted
"The third-cause fallacy (also known as ignoring a common cause or questionable cause)
is a logical fallacy where a spurious relationship is confused for causation.
It asserts that X causes Y when, in reality, X and Y are both caused by Z.
It is a variation on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy and a member of the questionable cause group of fallacies."
Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia
Z= faithX = works
Y= salvation
when, in reality, works and salvation are both caused by FAITH
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Stephen
Active member
I've not asserted that X causes Y. Your claim that this is a fallacy committed by me is just you making stuff up for whatever reasons that drove you to it.
I've only spoken of presence. The faith that saves is never alone. You posts comes you wishing that to find ways for that statement to be false.
1Thess521
Well-known member
well let's test that
is someone saved at the moment they accept the God-given gift of faith?
Nor is any other denomination.
A Christian is Christ like, like Jesus was in the Father no different at all. Perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect walk as He walks in His same light, same signs follow. How many denominations actually follow the way of Christ, can you name just one who is as He is as He demands of us if we are to be in Him and He in you as one .
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Theo1689
Well-known member
You might start to build up some credibility if you EVER decided to address the following:
Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
You bring up your same "proof-text" a hundred times or more, but you NEVER answer the above passages.
But then again, Mormons are known for rejecting the Bible.