Faith that saves Is never alone?

1Thess521

Well-known member
Then why are you postulating one can be saved through a dead faith?
God does not give the gift of a dead faith:

the cause: then the effect
After someone accepts the God-given supernatural gift of faith and they are in Christ and Christ is in them: the new is here and the old is gone.
then they will do good works


so if we are not saved by works of the law
and we are not saved by works of righteousness:

still waiting for an answer:
you must have MANY examples of works that are not works of righteousness and not works of the Law:


3 tangible examples please
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
still waiting for an answer:
you must have MANY examples of works that are not works of righteousness and not works of the Law:


3 tangible examples please

And I'm still posting those examples:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's 16 examples--and the additional testimony--"and such like:"

So--could you explain for us how one can avoid Paul's condemnation here--without obeying the commandments?

Also--please explain for us--- how one fits that testimony into faith alone theology--which excludes all works in obtaining eternal life?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
And I'm still posting those examples:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's 16 examples--and the additional testimony--"and such like:"

So--could you explain for us how one can avoid Paul's condemnation here--without obeying the commandments?

Also--please explain for us--- how one fits that testimony into faith alone theology--which excludes all works in obtaining eternal life?
and another swing and a miss

obeying the commandments are works of the Law !!
obeying the commandments are works of the Law !!
obeying the commandments are works of the Law !!



Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Eph 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

still waiting for an answer:
you must have MANY examples of works that are not works of righteousness and not works of the Law:
what are some examples of these works that God would want me to do??
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You gotta love these shotgun passages where mere phrases are used to defend a doctrine and the rest of the passage is ignored. Soundbite theology as it were. Good for creating scriptural simpletons, but bad for creating people who actually know what the bible teaches.

Let's go through them.

------------------------------------------


Let's read the actual passage:

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And I would like to pose the question in a little different way--how can one enter into eternal life--if they don't even fulfill the very purpose God has prepared us to do?(which I feel is Stephen's point)
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Then why are you postulating one can be saved through a dead faith?
are you trying to build a case that during the moment of time between accepting the God-given gift of faith and the doing of a good work makes that God-given faith a "dead faith".

IOW: Does the God -given gift of faith usually start out as a "dead faith" until you do some works to make it alive?
(let's all watch how this goes)
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
And I would like to pose the question in a little different way--how can one enter into eternal life--if they don't even fulfill the very purpose God has prepared us to do?(which I feel is Stephen's point)

through what is our inheritance kept in heaven?
when were you marked with the seal, the promises of the Holy Spirit?


1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade.
This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,
5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Shielded by the POWER of GOD!
Sealed by the Holy Spirit
can NEVER perish, spoil or fade.
PROMISED by God
GUARANTEED
through faith
when we believed
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
and another swing and a miss

obeying the commandments are works of the Law !!

I believe there is something which might need to be examined here:

Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law--as Abraham was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Abraham also had the commandments:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Later--the Law was ADDED to the gospel--to form what we call the "Mosaic Law":

Galatians 3:18-19---King James Version
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what? It was added to the gospel--which was already present in Abraham.

That's the reason, when the Mosaic Law was fulfilled---the commandments remained--and could be comported to eternal life--because the commandments existed under the gospel--before the Law was given:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--can we show where Paul differentiated between the works of the Law--and keeping the commandments?

I think so:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Also--the disciples:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I believe there is something which might need to be examined here:

Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law--as Abraham was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.
Romans 4
Abraham was declared righteousness by God because of his faith BEFORE he did any works
5:1
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"


still waiting for an answer: You have not yet provided one tangible example that was not either a work of righteousness or a work of the law

you must have MANY examples of works that are not works of righteousness and not works of the Law:
what are some examples of these works that God would want me to do??
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
through what is our inheritance kept in heaven?
when were you marked with the seal, the promises of the Holy Spirit?

When one obeys God:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade.
This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,
5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time

And what is your evidence that "faith" does not include works of righteousness? Is a faith without works?

1 Peter 1:13-17---King James Version
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Romans 4
Abraham was declared righteousness by God because of his faith BEFORE he did any works
5:1
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

And just where do we find Abraham's faith portrayed as a faith not including works?

Genesis 12:1-4---King James Version
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

James 2:21---King James Version

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
when were you marked with the seal, the promises of the Holy Spirit?
When one obeys God:
and yet the actual answer is :
you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
James 2:21---King James Version
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
justified to who?
to God?
We are told Abraham was justified even before he was circumcised in Gen 17; well before he had offered Isaac in Chapter 22

please resolve

Do you think that is one of the works God would want me to do to to be saved?


still waiting for an answer: You have not yet provided one tangible example that was not either a work of righteousness or a work of the law

you must have MANY examples of works that are not works of righteousness and not works of the Law:
what are some examples of these works that God would want me to do??
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
when were you marked with the seal, the promises of the Holy Spirit?

and yet the actual answer is :
you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession

That only connects obeying God as being an integral component of belief:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

IOW--when you use the term "car"--are you including the engine, transmission, doors, wheels, hood, etc--as integral components?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
justified to who?
to God?
We are told Abraham was justified even before he was circumcised in Gen 17; well before he had offered Isaac in Chapter 22

I was under the impression Genesis 12 is before Genesis 17--and well before Abraham's circumcision:

Genesis 12:1-4---King James Version
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
That only connects obeying God as being an integral component of belief:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

IOW--when you use the term "car"--are you including the engine, transmission, doors, wheels, hood, etc--as integral components?
What's that got to do with the Gentiles who were filled with the Spirit while Peter was yet preaching? Did they know all these "rules?"
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I was under the impression Genesis 12 is before Genesis 17--and well before Abraham's circumcision:

Genesis 12:1-4---King James Version
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
we have been through this:
it was by FAITH that Abraham when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

it was by FAITH that he was justified by GOD

there was a question in my post

I give up:
good luck
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
we have been through this:
it was by FAITH that Abraham when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

That only connects faith and obedience as being integral to one another.

Thess--the faith alone separate out any acts of obedience, from faith-- in obtaining the promise.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
What's that got to do with the Gentiles who were filled with the Spirit while Peter was yet preaching? Did they know all these "rules?"

That's a good question, but I might even have a better one?

What instance are you referring to?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
That's a good question, but I might even have a better one?

What instance are you referring to?

Acts 10:44-46

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit
had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.



.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Acts 10:44-46

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit
had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.



.

OK--I thought you might have been referring to Acts 2.

The testimony of Peter was this:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I take that to mean the Holy Ghost fell on them because they worked righteousness--which connects obedience and the Holy Ghost, IMO.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
 
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