Faiths that do not save

Theo1689

Well-known member
Greetings again Theo1689,

You are correct here, as I am very much in my environment as far as reading and listening. The article by HA Twelves and your quick and thorough response is beyond my depth of reasoning and understanding at this present stage of my development, but I will keep a copy of your response together with my article for reference, for my contemplation and possibly for anyone else in our meeting who is interested in this subject.

Kind regards
Trevor

Well, let me suggest something to you... You grow more when you're exposed to differing viewpoints, than when you live your life in an echo chamber.

And if you are in any way serious, I would recommend James White's book, "The Potter's Freedom", as he goes into greater detail, and can make a far more compelling argument than is possible in a 10,000 character forum post. And for fairness, his book was a response to Norm Geisler's "Chosen But Free", which has a viewpoint similar to yours, so you are welcome to read both sides.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Theo1689,
Well, let me suggest something to you... You grow more when you're exposed to differing viewpoints, than when you live your life in an echo chamber.
We do have a reasonable ebb and flow of people and ideas and we try to avoid making clones, but the range of ideas is mainly after we agree with most aspects of our fellowship's statement of faith, so your comment is still valid.

I have saved your two latest responses attached to my MSWord copy of HA Twelves article as "Response by Theo1689 in CARM forum Arminianism and Calvinism topic “Faiths that do not save” September 30th 21" and it saved well. One of the disappointments of forum discussions is they seem to gradually disappear or sometimes get full of shallow comments, like flag wavers or message boards at a US political rally. I think the present is the third edition of the CARM database since my joining, and some good threads are lost. When I first joined 17 years ago there was a strong discussion on the CARM Christadelphian sub-forum on the subject of the Yahweh Name, and again both sides were too difficult for me as it involved members with fairly thorough Hebrew language skills. It ran to 142 mostly meaningful posts and I tried to save the thread, but incorrectly, and ended up with only a few pages. The main Christadelphian member was able to email a copy some years later after they had started a new edition of CARM.
And if you are in any way serious, I would recommend James White's book, "The Potter's Freedom", as he goes into greater detail, and can make a far more compelling argument than is possible in a 10,000 character forum post. And for fairness, his book was a response to Norm Geisler's "Chosen But Free", which has a viewpoint similar to yours, so you are welcome to read both sides.
I appreciate your recommendation. At least I will try to browse these books when the new (relocated to 1km away) retail shop opens later this month after our present covid lock-down.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
The Serpent of old set a trap for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. God graciously told Adam that eating of one tree in the garden would kill him, but Satan told them they would surely not die; and would become like God himself. They ate of that tree and began to die; dying they would die.
Gen 2:17 says, "...for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die!" (ESV)

The "death" of the first sin was instantaneous; there was no beginning to die, there was death completed!

Doug
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings TibiasDad,
Gen 2:17 says, "...for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die!" (ESV)
The "death" of the first sin was instantaneous; there was no beginning to die, there was death completed!
I read this as saying that it was the start of a process, and the Hebrew is evidently "dying, thou shalt die", a similar expression to "eating, thou shalt eat", but I am not a Hebraist. Another way of looking at this is that it is more like a sentence, when you eat you will die, in the same sense if you murder someone you will die. It is not specifying the exact time of death. The real meaning of the word "death" is death, a cessation of living, taking the last breath, corrupting and returning to dust. Any other usage is figurative, but Genesis here is literal.

The sentence upon Adam because of his sin is clearly stated as a process, not instantaneous:
genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Different to most people, I believe that the sentence for sin is death, not going to hell to be burnt for eternity Romans 5:12, 6:23.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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