Fallacy that command implies ability !

JDS

Active member
Okay, so the fact that I *CAN* praise the Lord strongly suggests that I'm one of the elect.
So what's the problem? ;)
I have been in the prison ministry and have heard inmates in jails praising God. Pretty sure some of them were not elect. So, what you are saying is that if they can praise the Lord, it is good evidence they have been chosen.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have been in the prison ministry

So you're boasting of your "good works"?

and have heard inmates in jails praising God. Pretty sure some of them were not elect.

What is your evidence of that?

So, what you are saying is that if they can praise the Lord, it is good evidence they have been chosen.

1Cor. 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
 

JDS

Active member
So you're boasting of your "good works"?



What is your evidence of that?



1Cor. 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
You are evading the question. The evidence that you are not totally depraved is the ability to praise God?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are evading the question. The evidence that you are not totally depraved is the ability to praise God?

You didn't ask me any "question".

Or maybe you don't know what a "question" is, I don't know...
 

JDS

Active member
Men are said to be dead in trespasses and sin and made alive Eph 2 5
Ephesians 2:5 is in the context of the revelation of the mystery that he is dealing with in this epistle. The theme of this epistle is the "mystery of Christ." It was a mystery because it was not the subject of OT prophecy. The reason it was not the subject of OT prophecy is because the Lord Jesus came to fulfill all prophecy concerning himself that was given in the law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. This included Kingship over a converted Israel, and by extension, all the world. His gospel message to Israel and that of his disciples was not that he was going to die and rise again, but that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. This presentation of himself as King of Israel was legitimate and real and would have occurred had Israel received him as Messiah. Yes, he would have died for the sins of the world and yes he would have ascended to heaven to receive the kingdom from the Father, and yes the gentiles would have been saved by him, but gentiles would not have been included in his church. This is a great blessing and advantage for the gentiles. This is the mystery of Christ.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
(he had been speaking to Jews for 5 chapters)

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You can't have unbelief unless there is the possibility to have belief. It is like a crossroads. You must decide which road to take.

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Shucks, you don't even believe there were other ages before this one, so how are you going to believe most of the words in the text?

I remind you that Paul was not even saved until AD 37 and after all God's efforts to save the Jews had been ended in their rejection of him and God began preparing Paul for his ministry to the gentiles. This gentile business is a contingency because of the unbelief of Israel towards their Messiah and King.

NOT A SINGLE GENTILE GOT IN BECAUSE THEY WERE ELECTED BEFORE AD 37 MUCH LESS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

It is as simple as that and the way it is on December 18, 2020. Be instructed and be wise and believe the words in the texts.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes, the law kills; no one is justified by the law. Not a word about the spirit dying and unable to call upon the Lord.
Men are Spiritually dead. They are alienated from the life of God. That is why they must be quicken or made alive Eph 2:5. Paul is not talking about being made alive physically but Spiritually.

Calling on the name of the Lord follows being quicken PS 80:18

So will not we go back from thee:
quicken us, and we will call upon thy name
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...

Calling on the name of the Lord follows being quicken PS 80:18

So will not we go back from thee:
quicken us, and we will call upon thy name
Read the context; it is praying to God for deliverance before they are quickened.

Psa 80:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.
Psa 80:2 Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh stir up thy strength, and come and save us.
Psa 80:3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

The same applies to the faithful saints in Christ who believed the gospel.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Read the context; it is praying to God for deliverance before they are quickened.

Psa 80:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.
Psa 80:2 Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh stir up thy strength, and come and save us.
Psa 80:3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

The same applies to the faithful saints in Christ who believed the gospel.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
I know the context
 

TibiasDad

Active member
If command implies ability were true there then the necessity for Christ to live a perfect life under the law in our place would never needed to occur. Christs 1st Coming is evidence that command does not imply ability. The law as Paul states clearly is to reveal all are under sin and that there is none righteous no not one, there is none who does good no not one. The purpose of the law was to reveal sin and that we are utterly helpless under the law to obey.

Romans 7:5-12
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:19-26
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

Hi Civic,

I think your argument is a bit misleading: The question is not 'does a command imply ability" to keep the command, but rather "does the command imply the ability to do the commands perfectly".

You are correct that the purpose of the Law, aka, the command, is to reveal the utter sinfulness of sin and to reveal its effectiveness in our actions. But this becomes effectually evident at the point of a singular sin. No one is able to keep the law perfectly, which would be the requirement if salvation is by means of keeping the law. So the ability to obey 99.9% of the time does not meet the threshold of perfection, but it does not mean we are completely unable. We are completely unable to do what must be done, but we are not completely unable to do anything. One sin=sin wins! (James 2:10)

You are also correct that " by works of the Law no one will be justified." But this doesn't require a total inability to obey, just a total inability to obey perfectly. But now, after believing, "the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Rom 8:4)

Doug
 

armylngst

Active member
res. No one has total inability because they are unsaved. That does not even makes sense, especially when a sinner is charged to believe a report in order to be saved. Have you ever really thought through these things?
You don't have a clue what the scriptures means by being spiritually dead and you cannot be taught because you are a blind Calvinist. You don't even know what it means to be physically dead. You do not know what the second death means. You are shooting from the hip without knowledge and making stuff up as you go.
Being a blind calvinist is better than a dead whatever you may be calling yourself these days. God can use a blind person, but if you're dead...not so much.
 

JDS

Active member
Being a blind calvinist is better than a dead whatever you may be calling yourself these days. God can use a blind person, but if you're dead...not so much.
You were able to post a comment. That has to prove something.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
JDS said:
res. No one has total inability because they are unsaved. That does not even makes sense,

Well, it may not make sense to YOU, in which case it means you have no basis on lecturing us, no more than a 5-year-old has any basis in "lecturing" a Calculus professor.

especially when a sinner is charged to believe a report in order to be saved.

You seem to be ASSUMING that "command implies ability", even thought the Bible explicitly denies any such thing.

Have you ever really thought through these things?

<sigh>
Yes, we HAVE "ever really thought through these things".

And they are perfectly consistent with the Bible.

JDS said:
You don't have a clue what the scriptures means by being spiritually dead and you cannot be taught because you are a blind Calvinist.

<Chuckle>

You claim we "cannot be taught", yet here YOU are trying to "teach" us.

Have YOU "ever really thought through these things?!" bwahahahaha!

You don't even know what it means to be physically dead. You do not know what the second death means. You are shooting from the hip without knowledge and making stuff up as you go.

Just a helpful piece of advice...

Insulting people and misrepresenting what they believe is NOT going to make them more eager to accept your false teachings. Just sayin'.
 

JDS

Active member
Well, it may not make sense to YOU, in which case it means you have no basis on lecturing us, no more than a 5-year-old has any basis in "lecturing" a Calculus professor.,
Have you thought about what total inability means? It means one who is plagued with this problem cannot do anything. Yet, I posted a thread about Cornelius from Acts 10, an unsaved man who was wanting to be saved. This man was instructed by God himself to send for Peter and he would tell him what he aught to do to be saved. This is just one instance where the teaching of total inability is proven to be a serious error. The entire OT, a period of four thousand years where no one was saved, refutes this error.

Remember I discussed justification by faith in the OT from Rom 3-5?

You seem to be ASSUMING that "command implies ability", even thought the Bible explicitly denies any such thing.
I am not assuming that a command implies ability, I know it does. I spent a stint in the military and I learned what a command was and what was expected when I received one. That reminds me of this command and that I understand it. Read it with me.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


<sigh>
Yes, we HAVE "ever really thought through these things".

And they are perfectly consistent with the Bible.
I did not even have to try hard, Theo, and I gave you scenarios above that demonstrates your teaching of total inability is inconsistent with the scriptures. How are you going to handle that? Are you just going to say that I am mean to you and therefore you are not going to answer?




<Chuckle>

You claim we "cannot be taught", yet here YOU are trying to "teach" us.

Have YOU "ever really thought through these things?!" bwahahahaha!
Yes, I have thought through them. I have given them lots of thought. That is why I am here. Because I don't think most Calvinists think on their own. It is more like programming. I think there might be a point when reasoning and logic is no longer possible. I was amazed at the responses in my Cornelius thread. It is not at all difficult to follow the logic in that historical offering yet it seems like no one gets it. why is that?
Just a helpful piece of advice...
Insulting people and misrepresenting what they believe is NOT going to make them more eager to accept your false teachings. Just sayin'.

If my teaching is false I don't want them to accept it. But, it is not false and the scriptures nowhere presents us with the Calvinist teaching of total depravity. It is just a dark miracle that a person of your intellectual stature and achievements could be persuaded to fall for something like that. An average 5th grader would know better.

Read my Cornelius thread and you will see an unsaved man doing all the things your religion teaches that an unsaved man cannot do. We will talk about consistency then.
 
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