Fallen Nature Testing Station

[Dant01]

.
The creator, by means of precognition, knew in advance that if He brought human
life into existence as planned; He would eventually be destroying much of it in a
global deluge. He went ahead and created human life as planned anyway.

Also by means of precognition, the creator knew in advance that if He brought
human life into existence as planned; He would be torturing much of it in Hell
and eventually destroying much of it in a lake of brimstone. He went ahead and
created human life as planned anyway.

If the creator's decision to bring human life into existence as planned seems
unreasonable, and maybe even a touch fiendish and insane, then you test positive
for the fallen nature.
_

 

[CrowCross]

.
The creator, by means of precognition, knew in advance that if He brought human
life into existence as planned; He would eventually be destroying much of it in a
global deluge. He went ahead and created human life as planned anyway.

Also by means of precognition, the creator knew in advance that if He brought
human life into existence as planned; He would be torturing much of it in Hell
and eventually destroying much of it in a lake of brimstone. He went ahead and
created human life as planned anyway.

If the creator's decision to bring human life into existence as planned seems
unreasonable, and maybe even a touch fiendish and insane, then you test positive
for the fallen nature.
_

Interesting.

Some thoughts....and I'm not dogmatic on it.

Precognition implies forknowledge. I think this is deeper than foreknowledge. God would have foreknown the foreknowledge. Whatever that means.

Considering the only un-created 100% perfect entity is the Trinity any other creature of creation would be less than 100% and then be subject to a fall.

God being God is in the business of expressing Himself. If God by nature is a creator then He must create. If God is by nature a God of justice then He must Judge and show Justice. If God by nature is Love, then He must show love. Same for grace, compassion and mercy.

Perhaps to show His attributes God created mankind that would fall so some could be rescued and the fullness of God could be demonstrated.

 

[Dant01]

.

Perhaps to show His attributes God created mankind that would fall so some could
be rescued and the fullness of God could be demonstrated.

And you don't see that as cruel and inhumane; maybe even fiendish; creating all
those people to be slain and tortured in order to show the survivors what a great
guy He is?

It isn't uncommon for folk to liken the creator to a sort of celestial cattle rancher
who raises hundreds of head of livestock hoping they'll produce a few "blue ribbon"
animals for him to keep for breeding purposes whereas the second-rate cows are
shipped off to the slaughter houses; some to be cooked into tallow.
_

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Dant01,

Also by means of precognition, the creator knew in advance that if He brought human life into existence as planned; He would be torturing much of it in Hell
and eventually destroying much of it in a lake of brimstone. He went ahead and created human life as planned anyway.

I disagree with your overview and I will not answer some of your extreme statements disparaging God in your last post. The lot of most people is that they live their 60-90 years and then die and return to the dust. Most are content with this limited way of life and make the most of their temporal opportunities. For them there is no future torture, and no future burning and destruction in a lake of fire. For a few who hear the Gospel and respond there is the prospect of resurrection and granting of immortality in the future Kingdom of God for the 1000 years upon the earth. This reveals a merciful and righteous Creator. The ultimate purpose of God is to fill this earth with His Glory Numbers 14:21.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

.

And you don't see that as cruel and inhumane; maybe even fiendish; creating all
those people to be slain and tortured in order to show the survivors what a great
guy He is?

It isn't uncommon for folk to liken the creator to a sort of celestial cattle rancher
who raises hundreds of head of livestock hoping they'll produce a few "blue ribbon"
animals for him to keep for breeding purposes whereas the second-rate cows are
shipped off to the slaughter houses; some to be cooked into tallow.
_

No. Maybe I test positive.

 

[Dant01]

.

No. Maybe I test positive.

If you don't see it as cruel and inhumane; maybe even fiendish; creating all
those people to be slain and tortured in order to show the survivors what a great
guy He is-- then I'd say you test negative for the fallen nature, i.e. you don't have
it.
_

 

[Dant01]

.

For them there is no future torture, and no future burning and destruction in a lake
of fire.

Let's say, hypothetically, that there really is a torture in Hell and a future burning
and destruction in a lake of fire; how would you feel about that kind of a creator?

If you're a reasonable person, with normal sensitivities, I think you'd have to agree
that a creator like that is a monster; a tyrannical despot far more dangerous than
North Korea's Kim Jong-un.
_

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dant01,

Let's say, hypothetically, that there really is a torture in Hell and a future burning and destruction in a lake of fire; how would you feel about that kind of a creator?

But what you are stating as hypothetical is the religion of many Catholic and Protestant Churches, and this has been adopted from paganism when the early Church adopted the concept of immortal souls. Your insistence is possibly evidence that you hold this teaching, but I have not checked your exposition on Genesis. Genesis 3:19 teaches the mortality of man, that as a result of his sin, Adam and his descendants return to the dust. Apart from a resurrection of some they will perish Daniel 12:2-3. God is a merciful God, and has balanced mercy and justice in the death and resurrection of Christ and the offer of salvation and life in him.

If you're a reasonable person, with normal sensitivities, I think you'd have to agree that a creator like that is a monster; a tyrannical despot far more dangerous than North Korea's Kim Jong-un.

Again could you please desist denigrating the character of God the Father, as God is love, and he has revealed his love in the creation and the new creation in Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dant01]

.

could you please desist denigrating the character of God the Father

You probably believe yourself a reasonable person with normal sensitivities; so
let me ask you this:

If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the
human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require
you to exterminate almost the entire batch in a deluge-- men, women, underage
children, infants, handicapped folk, and senior citizens (not to mention birds, bugs,
and beasts) --would you willfully and deliberately go ahead and bring all that life
into existence anyway knowing full well in advance that your own hand would
eventually be killing them by means of a massive die-off?

In my honest opinion (I assume we're all being honest here) no reasonable person,
with normal sensitivities, would ever knowingly jeopardize so much life just so they
could have their very own sandbox to play in.

• Rev 4:11 . . O Lord our God . . you created everything, and it is for your
pleasure that they exist and were created.
_

 

[Dant01]

.

Let's say, hypothetically, that there really is a torture in Hell and a future burning
and destruction in a lake of fire; how would you feel about that kind of a creator?

The human mind consists of an area called the sub conscience. It's the place in our
memory files where we suppress unacceptable thoughts. For example: most
Christians cannot admit, even to themselves, their honest opinions about God
because those opinions are not only unbecoming, but also unthinkable. Some of
those thoughts about God are so disturbing that sometimes when one leaks out for
us to contemplate, it actually makes us flinch and sometimes even momentarily
close our eyes and grit our teeth.

I started this thread as a self-test for the fallen nature. The results are useful only
when people are honest with themselves.
_

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dant01,

If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require you to exterminate almost the entire batch in a deluge-- men, women, underage children, infants, handicapped folk, and senior citizens (not to mention birds, bugs, and beasts) --would you willfully and deliberately go ahead and bring all that life into existence anyway knowing full well in advance that your own hand would eventually be killing them by means of a massive die-off?

I suggest that you are still continuing with your limited logic and still calling in question both the wisdom of God in what He has done, and also seem to be denigrating the character of God revealed in His mercy and righteousness. One estimate is that the flood occurred about 1650 years after the creation. Much was achieved in those years, especially through the family after Seth and his descendants. There reached a time however when there was a breaking down of the separation between the faithful and Cain’s descendants, with the result of wide spread wickedness. This is the major reason given for the flood, but nevertheless God preserved Noah and his family ushering in a new beginning. We also know the subsequent problems with Babel, and the gradual out working of God’s purpose through Abraham and Israel, culminating in the central focus of God’s purpose revealed in and through the Son of God. To pick up one piece of a completed jigsaw puzzle, and to start criticising this small segment, disconnecting from the whole, and also using this to impugn the character of God is very shallow and distorted.

The human mind consists of an area called the sub conscience. It's the place in our memory files where we suppress unacceptable thoughts. For example: most
Christians cannot admit, even to themselves, their honest opinions about God because those opinions are not only unbecoming, but also unthinkable. Some of
those thoughts about God are so disturbing that sometimes when one leaks out for us to contemplate, it actually makes us flinch and sometimes even momentarily close our eyes and grit our teeth.

I notice that you did not respond to my comments rejecting the concept about torture in hell and nor did you comment on my explanation of Genesis 3:19. Yes I agree that it would be good for supporters of torture in hell to reject their false ideas which are based upon paganism. Such pagan concepts should make anyone flinch and yet they hold onto these false ideas tenaciously. I also had time to look at your commentary on Genesis, and I previously responded to your comments on Genesis 3:19, but you did not reply there also. Please re-examine what Genesis 3:19 actually teaches and this may help you to abandon the concept of torture in hell.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dant01]

.

In my honest opinion (I assume we're all being honest here) no reasonable person,
with normal sensitivities, would ever knowingly jeopardize so much life just so they
could have their very own sandbox to play in.

My opinion insinuates that the creator is an unreasonable person whose sensitivities
fall in the abnormal range. What does my opinion say about me? Well; obviously it
says that I test positive for the fallen nature.

• Rom 8:7 . .The sinful mind is hostile to God.

FAQ: I am sometimes secretly opposed to the way God goes about His business.
Does that mean there is no hope for me?

A: Heb 9:1-14 teaches that Christ's blood serves to sanitize our minds; and we only
have to undergo that form of sanitation just once and it's good for all time; we
never have to repeat the process.

FAQ: Christ's blood can stop my mind from thinking bad thoughts about God?

A: No, you can expect that those kinds of thoughts will continue to be a nuisance;
but they will never again be a barrier between you and God. Christ will make sure
of that. The remainder of the ninth chapter of Hebrews bears that out.

FAQ: So, how do I go about obtaining this mental sanitation about which you
speak?

A: That's easy. Find yourself a place and simply speak up, admitting to God that
you have a sinful mind and would like to take advantage of His son's blood to
sanitize it. It sometimes helps to cover your face with your hands to give you a
sense of privacy between you and God. I pray like that all the time; it works for
me.
_

 

[SteveB]

.
The creator, by means of precognition, knew in advance that if He brought human
life into existence as planned; He would eventually be destroying much of it in a
global deluge. He went ahead and created human life as planned anyway.

Also by means of precognition, the creator knew in advance that if He brought
human life into existence as planned; He would be torturing much of it in Hell
and eventually destroying much of it in a lake of brimstone. He went ahead and
created human life as planned anyway.

If the creator's decision to bring human life into existence as planned seems
unreasonable, and maybe even a touch fiendish and insane, then you test positive
for the fallen nature.
_

Oh darn!

I was so hoping to have escaped that one!

Oh well, at least I'm aware there's salvation available, and taking advantage of it.

 

[SteveB]

Interesting.

Some thoughts....and I'm not dogmatic on it.

Precognition implies forknowledge. I think this is deeper than foreknowledge. God would have foreknown the foreknowledge. Whatever that means.

Considering the only un-created 100% perfect entity is the Trinity any other creature of creation would be less than 100% and then be subject to a fall.

God being God is in the business of expressing Himself. If God by nature is a creator then He must create. If God is by nature a God of justice then He must Judge and show Justice. If God by nature is Love, then He must show love. Same for grace, compassion and mercy.

Perhaps to show His attributes God created mankind that would fall so some could be rescued and the fullness of God could be demonstrated.

Here's a novel thought.....

What if it's just about Love?

It's a terrible risk to love someone who may not find you lovable, and not like you for you/your ideas/values.
Maybe the few who would love him in return, is worth it to him.

 

[Dant01]

.

It's a terrible risk to love someone who may not find you lovable, and not like you
for you/your ideas/values.

The creator took no risks. He knew in advance, by means of precognition, exactly
how the human creatures would turn out that he was about to bring into existence.

One day when I was a little boy, my dad and I were talking about Jesus and his
crucifixion. I was under the impression that he was a victim of unfortunate
circumstances. But my dad corrected me by saying: No, that was all planned.

I was too young at the time to comprehend the ramifications of my dad's comment;
but later on I began to realize just how profound my dad's words were-- and still
are.

According to 1Pet 1:18-20 and Rev 13:8, Christ's crucifixion was factored into the
master plan of creation from before God uttered His famous words in Gen 1:3,
which implies that His son's crucifixion wasn't an EMT sent to the scene of a train
wreck; no, it turns out that God, by means of precognition, was expecting the fall of
man prior to any men even existing, i.e. the fall of humanity didn't take its creator
by surprise, viz: His son's crucifixion wasn't a contingency, rather, the event was
scheduled prior to the creation of even the very first atom, and it took place right
on time.

Maybe the few who would love him in return, is worth it to him.

I really have to question the politics of folk who are comfortable with a creator
likened to a sort of celestial cattle rancher who raises hundreds of head of livestock
hoping they'll produce a few "blue ribbon" animals while the second rate cattle
are culled from the herd and shipped off to slaughter houses where the poor things
are made into dog food, and cooked into tallow.

God knew in advance that many would be called but few would be chosen, and yet
proceeded to bring millions of human lives in existence whom He knew would end
up in Hell; and many others executed in a lake of boiling sulfur; so don't go feeling
sorry for God when it's us who should be pitied.
_

 

[SteveB]

.


The creator took no risks. He knew in advance, by means of precognition, exactly
how the human creatures would turn out that he was about to bring into existence.

You can indeed claim that.
I think you misunderstand the nature of love, and what is entailed.

God's foreknowledge is something that goes far beyond our ability to comprehend and will take God an eternity to demonstrate the magnitude of his love for us.

One day when I was a little boy, my dad and I were talking about Jesus and his
crucifixion. I was under the impression that he was a victim of unfortunate
circumstances. But my dad corrected me by saying: No, that was all planned.

Yes. From the foundation of the world. Perhaps even before.

I was too young at the time to comprehend the ramifications of my dad's comment; but later on I began to realize just how profound my dad's words were-- and still
are.

According to 1Pet 1:18-20 and Rev 13:8, Christ's crucifixion was factored into the
master plan of creation from before God uttered His famous words in Gen 1:3,
which implies that His son's crucifixion wasn't an EMT sent to the scene of a train wreck; no, it turns out that God, by means of precognition, was expecting the fall of man prior to any men even existing, i.e. the fall of humanity didn't take its creator by surprise, viz: His son's crucifixion wasn't a contingency, rather, the event was scheduled prior to the creation of even the very first atom, and it took place right on time.

I don't think it's about a train wreck or an emt sent to an accident scene.

I think it's deeper than we know.

Choice isn't much of a choice if the consequences of the choices aren't real.

I'm the first to agree that it's not an easy thing. But God's foreknowledge includes this conversation, and your question.

I really have to question the politics of folk who are comfortable with a creator
likened to a sort of celestial cattle rancher who raises hundreds of head of livestock hoping they'll produce a few "blue ribbon" animals while the second rate cattle are culled from the herd and shipped off to slaughter houses where the poor things are made into dog food, and cooked into tallow.

God knew in advance that many would be called but few would be chosen, and yet
proceeded to bring millions of human lives in existence whom He knew would end
up in Hell; and many others executed in a lake of boiling sulfur; so don't go feeling
sorry for God when it's us who should be pitied.
_

I still think it's entirely about Love, and the risk one takes in loving.

That you think it's a matter of animals or even comparable to animals I find disturbing.

These are human beings we're talking about.

Jesus died for the entire human race. Including the ones who choose to tell God no.

Jesus said in Revelation 21:8 that cowards and unbelievers will be in the lake of fire.

Do you comprehend what this means?

People who think that their unbelief isn't a problem will spend their eternity in torment.

Not because God wants them to. But because they told God no.

So, you can indeed say you have a problem with people whose politics bother you.

You should however pay closer attention to the biblical narrative.

 

[Dant01]

.
Regarding the forbidden fruit incident depicted in the 3rd chapter of the book of
Genesis:

• Rom 5:12 . .When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin
brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

FAQ: How is it fair to charge the entire human race with the sin of one man?

A: I don't know.

FAQ: Why do I have to die for something I didn't do?

A: I don't know.

FAQ: I was made a sinner before I was even born?

A: Yes.

REACTION: That makes me angry!

RESPONSE: You should be angry, and if you're not, then I really have to question
your moral values, i.e. your sense of justice, and your perception of right and
wrong.

REACTION: Romans 5:12 is a mistake. According to Ezek 18:20, children are not
responsible for their father's sins.

RESPONSE: According to Deut 5:2-4 and Gal 3:17, the laws of God are not
retroactive, i.e. Ezek 18:20 was enacted too late to have any say in Adam's life.

FAQ: Does my anger in this matter mean that I test positive for the fallen nature?

A: You test positive.

• Rom 8:7 . .The sinful mind is hostile to God.
_

 

[Dant01]

.
There's a significant element of difference between Adam's actions and Christ's.
Everyone gets slammed with the consequences related to Adam's act; whereas the
blessings related to Jesus' act are limited to the few that are chosen from among
the many that are called.

The above makes no sense to a reasonable person because if Christ died for
everybody, then why isn't everybody chosen? And if it's God's will that everybody
be saved; then why aren't they?

Christians have invented a variety of canned apologies with which to respond to
those kinds of questions, while in the backs of their minds struggling with the
lunacy of it all because their fallen nature really and truly perceives God as some
kind of twisted nut; though they'd rather be whipped with a cord of nine tails than
ever admit to feeling that way.
_

 

[Dant01]

.
I didn't start this thread to discuss the pluses and minuses of various belief
systems, rather to discuss elements of the so-called fallen nature.

Most Christians will readily admit to the universality of the fallen nature; but
apparently believe themselves immune to its effects. But John pointed out in his
first epistle that if Christians say they have no sin, it means they are failing to be
totally honest about themselves, viz: their introspection is shaded.

I'm convinced there is a day coming when I will be called on the carpet to answer
for myself. That is not the time for dissembling, i.e. to cover up one's true feelings
with pious platitudes and apologetic rhetoric. I want to be 100% transparent if
perchance Christ asks me some very personal, penetrating questions; for example:

How I really felt about God knowing ahead of time, even before creating human
life, that one day He would be destroying most of it in a deluge; not to mention
confining much of it in Hell and later on executing them via a mode of death akin to
a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. By means of precognition, the
creator saw all that coming yet went ahead and created human life anyway. How
did I really feel about that?

How I really felt about being forced to get old and die due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about being made a sinner due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about God not stepping in to stop the Serpent from tempting Eve?

When I gave some serious thought to how God goes about His business, did I come
to the conclusion that some of His ways are neither reasonable nor sane?

I've no doubt that a pretty fair number of Christians are going to choke when
they're required to give truly honest answers to those kinds of questions. Some are
very good at snowing each other, but their snow jobs won't succeed with Jesus
because he won't be so much interested in what they knew about certain things,
rather, how they felt about certain things. The poor creatures are totally
unprepared for the psychological tsunami headed straight towards them.

• Rev 1:12-14 . . I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. . . . his eyes were
as a flame of fire.
_

 

[CrowCross]

.
I didn't start this thread to discuss the pluses and minuses of various belief
systems, rather to discuss elements of the so-called fallen nature.

Most Christians will readily admit to the universality of the fallen nature; but
apparently believe themselves immune to its effects. But John pointed out in his
first epistle that if Christians say they have no sin, it means they are failing to be
totally honest about themselves, viz: their introspection is shaded.

I'm convinced there is a day coming when I will be called on the carpet to answer
for myself. That is not the time for dissembling, i.e. to cover up one's true feelings
with pious platitudes and apologetic rhetoric. I want to be 100% transparent if
perchance Christ asks me some very personal, penetrating questions; for example:

How I really felt about God knowing ahead of time, even before creating human
life, that one day He would be destroying most of it in a deluge; not to mention
confining much of it in Hell and later on executing them via a mode of death akin to
a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. By means of precognition, the
creator saw all that coming yet went ahead and created human life anyway. How
did I really feel about that?

How I really felt about being forced to get old and die due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about being made a sinner due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about God not stepping in to stop the Serpent from tempting Eve?

When I gave some serious thought to how God goes about His business, did I come
to the conclusion that some of His ways are neither reasonable nor sane?

I've no doubt that a pretty fair number of Christians are going to choke when
they're required to give truly honest answers to those kinds of questions. Some are
very good at snowing each other, but their snow jobs won't succeed with Jesus
because he won't be so much interested in what they knew about certain things,
rather, how they felt about certain things. The poor creatures are totally
unprepared for the psychological tsunami headed straight towards them.

• Rev 1:12-14 . . I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. . . . his eyes were
as a flame of fire.
_

It could be as simple as God made us in His image...and He knew the other being He created would get pissed that they werre not made in Gods image.
The other beings would try to harm or destroy Gods "in His image" creation.

Of course that only pushes it back a step....why did God create other beings knowing they would attack the made in His image humans.