Fatalism is divine meticulous determinism for calvinists

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But God does intentionally predetermine, supposedly according to you, that someone will push someone off a cliff, and that someone will unwilling die. Correct?

If I deceived someone into accidently push someone off a cliff, then I didn't push him, just like God didn't push him. Correct? But God would be me responsible. Correct?
I always say that God has the right to punish sinners by pushing them off a cliff himself or having someone push a person off a cliff. There's no way of getting around this fact. Are you against that?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But God does intentionally predetermine, supposedly according to you, that someone will push someone off a cliff, and that someone will unwilling die. Correct?

If I deceived someone into accidently push someone off a cliff, then I didn't push him, just like God didn't push him. Correct? But God would be me responsible. Correct?
I always say that God has the right to punish sinners by pushing them off a cliff himself or having someone push a person off a cliff. There's no way of getting around this fact. Are you against that?
 

Rockson

Well-known member
I did not say anything about defense.
So you don't try to defend what you consider to be true. I think it's obvious you at least seek to.
LOL, you did not answer my question. What did God send Amalek to do in 1 Samuel 15??
LOL ?? You're laughing at me? OK Keep in mind I could laugh at your very question for you must not have even read closely the 1 Sam 15:3 verse. God did not tell Amalek to do ANYTHING in that passage. It was what God through Samuel told Saul to do to Amalek. Sorry Reformedguy but you need to read up on what you think you know.
Did God send Amalek to kill women and children? The answer should be yes.
Nope that answer should be NO. Go back and read the text.

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have..." 1 Sam 15:3


Now go back and read your post.
Now go back and read the scriptures. And I covered the issue of which you spoke of. Why not go back and read that too?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
So you don't try to defend what you consider to be true. I think it's obvious you at least seek to.

LOL ?? You're laughing at me? OK Keep in mind I could laugh at your very question for you must not have even read closely the 1 Sam 15:3 verse. God did not tell Amalek to do ANYTHING in that passage. It was what God through Samuel told Saul to do to Amalek. Sorry Reformedguy but you need to read up on what you think you know.

Nope that answer should be NO. Go back and read the text.

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have..." 1 Sam 15:3



Now go back and read the scriptures. And I covered the issue of which you spoke of. Why not go back and read that too?
Your charges are silly. Your issue is with God and His word. Not me.

I did read it. You go back and read it. Would you like me to quote it? " but kill both man, woman, child and infant". Quite dishonest not to quote the whole verse. So I ask again. Did God command the killing of women and children??

Other examples

Deuteronomy 2: 33-34

Judges 21:10.

God's word wins again
 
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Rockson

Well-known member
Your charges are silly.
And I'll let God decide that in the judgement.
Your issue is with God and His word. Not me.
I hardly think so. You and all devote Calvinists at least one's pushing T.U.L.I.P will give account to God for giving a false picture about what the character of God is really like.
I did read it. You go back and read it.
You said God told Amalek to do something. You were wrong.
Quite dishonest not to quote the whole verse.
I quoted the part which revealed you were wrong. God did not tell Amalek to do anything. As for the killing of the children I covered all that and wrote clearly about all that in my post #432. Perhaps you should go back and respond to that post I shouldn't have to go back and type out the whole thing again and again. So much appreciated if you'd respond to #432.
 

Rockson

Well-known member
So I ask again. Did God command the killing of women and children??

Other examples

Deuteronomy 2: 33-34

Judges 21:10.
I responded to all this in post #432. I will put some of it down here,

You say because God had the Amalekite children killed well that's the equivalent for you of the most indecent, gross impure atrocities, gross things unspeakable things done to children. Like rape, like locking them up in a room for years subjecting them to who knows what treatment. In your judgment one thing is the same as the other? It seems that's what you're wanting to say.

It most certainly is not! And you should know better to even suggest it! God had certain tribe cultures in the Promised Land totally exterminated for their sins were exceedingly great and they'd be a thorn in the flesh to Israel in all future days. Their children undoubtedly would have become offended and a future day and would have risen up against Israel then too, thus they were exterminated. This would have been fast and quick by the sword and I believe we can be fully confident all such children made heaven their home not past any age of accountably. There was no indication at ever that they were treated in a impure manner (you get what I mean by that right?) no indication they were locked up into rooms, famished, and exposed to all horrors imaginable. This is what I'm trying to tell you if you'll allow yourself to be reached with these words.

EVERYTHING that happens HAS NOT been ordained of God! So you actually want to hold that God has a spiritual and mental state that just longs and wants to see the most devilish acts imaginable put-upon poor innocents??!!!! Again, what did Jesus say, “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matt 18:5,6

So if you're going to compare the Amalekite issue to actual Horrors of Horrors of things unspeakable you most certainly have gone down a wrong path. Self-righteous you say? I hardly think so. Reformedguy how about just accept your position is extreme.


 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I responded to all this in post #432. I will put some of it down here,

You say because God had the Amalekite children killed well that's the equivalent for you of the most indecent, gross impure atrocities, gross things unspeakable things done to children. Like rape, like locking them up in a room for years subjecting them to who knows what treatment. In your judgment one thing is the same as the other? It seems that's what you're wanting to say.

It most certainly is not! And you should know better to even suggest it! God had certain tribe cultures in the Promised Land totally exterminated for their sins were exceedingly great and they'd be a thorn in the flesh to Israel in all future days. Their children undoubtedly would have become offended and a future day and would have risen up against Israel then too, thus they were exterminated. This would have been fast and quick by the sword and I believe we can be fully confident all such children made heaven their home not past any age of accountably. There was no indication at ever that they were treated in a impure manner (you get what I mean by that right?) no indication they were locked up into rooms, famished, and exposed to all horrors imaginable. This is what I'm trying to tell you if you'll allow yourself to be reached with these words.

EVERYTHING that happens HAS NOT been ordained of God! So you actually want to hold that God has a spiritual and mental state that just longs and wants to see the most devilish acts imaginable put-upon poor innocents??!!!! Again, what did Jesus say, “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matt 18:5,6

So if you're going to compare the Amalekite issue to actual Horrors of Horrors of things unspeakable you most certainly have gone down a wrong path. Self-righteous you say? I hardly think so. Reformedguy how about just accept your position is extreme.
It's a simple yes or no question. Did God command the killing of women and children?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
And I'll let God decide that in the judgement.

I hardly think so. You and all devote Calvinists at least one's pushing T.U.L.I.P will give account to God for giving a false picture about what the character of God is really like.

You said God told Amalek to do something. You were wrong.

I quoted the part which revealed you were wrong. God did not tell Amalek to do anything. As for the killing of the children I covered all that and wrote clearly about all that in my post #432. Perhaps you should go back and respond to that post I shouldn't have to go back and type out the whole thing again and again. So much appreciated if you'd respond to #432.
Read the text. Did God command the killing of women and children, yes or no?
 

Rockson

Well-known member
Yes or no?
Read. The answer is there #432. Your approach actually seems like an unjust lawyer that DEMANDS just a YES or NO and runs off saying, "See there! I rest my case!" Fact is you would have made NO case at all. Forgive me but this is what it seems Calvinists do.... perhaps not all of them but many of them they take one verse of scripture and let that be their whole foundation of everything. It'd be like one quoting Rom 10:3 "There is none righteous no not one" shutting down conversation not allowing any discourse at all not realizing the Bible says other things too, like 2 Cor 5:21 that we've been made the righteousness of God in Christ. Other examples I believe I can cite as well.
I believe they call that cherry picking so readers beware. Fact is though I answered the question. The poster is merely creating a diversion refusing to address the points made.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Read. The answer is there #432. Your approach actually seems like an unjust lawyer that DEMANDS just a YES or NO and runs off saying, "See there! I rest my case!" Fact is you would have made NO case at all. Forgive me but this is what it seems Calvinists do.... perhaps not all of them but many of them they take one verse of scripture and let that be their whole foundation of everything. It'd be like one quoting Rom 10:3 "There is none righteous no not one" shutting down conversation not allowing any discourse at all not realizing the Bible says other things too, like 2 Cor 5:21 that we've been made the righteousness of God in Christ. Other examples I believe I can cite as well.
I believe they call that cherry picking so readers beware. Fact is though I answered the question. The poster is merely creating a diversion refusing to address the points made.
Thos poster refuse to deal with the text. Typical Provisionist. I asked a simple yes or no question and he precedes to write a book in a attempt to dodge the question. Notice lurkers he quickly dropped 1 Samuel 15 after citing a half a verse clearly trying to deceive. Refiused to address my other examples. Who can blame him. He prefers to make up his own God. He will tell God what He can and cannot do with His creation. He will tell God what is just and unjust. What is loving and not loving.

Now should I repost 1 Samuel 15: 3 again? The whole verse? LOL And repeat my question?
 
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Rockson

Well-known member
Thos poster refuse to deal with the text.
How disingenuous can you get? I dealt with the text in Post #432
I asked a simple yes or no question and he precedes to write a book in a attempt to dodge the question.
And Jesus was asked a simple YES or NO question too....and he refused to play by some of these religious leaders rules! Is it right to pay taxes to Ceasar or not...YES or NO and that's what they wanted! Lk 20:22 When something needed to be explained out he explained it out. So why is it Reformedguy that you don't want anything to do with that sort of thing? So let me give you my YES nor NO question....Did Jesus always answer things by just giving a YES or NO?


Notice lurkers he quickly dropped 1 Samuel 15 after citing a half a verse clearly trying to deceive.
I did no such thing. It's all in post #432 for all to see. I merely shortened up the later post to show you, you were wrong. God didn't tell Amalite to do anything and you said he did.
Refiused to address my other examples.
Your other examples are answered in 432, it's the same basic principle. And if you read 432 you would have seen I challenged you that God having some of those people groups including children exterminated which would have been quickly by the sword is a far, far thing to call that equivalent to seeing people raped, used for impure lust of the flesh and every hideous diabolical thing one can imagine and come back and say God ordained it! How far from the heart of God can one get?

He prefers to make up his own God.
But then again you know right that Non-Calvinsits think the same about you and yours.
He will tell God what He can and cannot do with His creation.
Or is it rather that Calvinists are trying to tell others what God does with his creation....and we don't accept it based on what the Word of God says.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And Jesus was asked a simple YES or NO question too....and he refused to play by some of these religious leaders rules!

You know you're not Jesus, right?

You know you're using that simply as an excuse not to give an answer, right?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
How disingenuous can you get? I dealt with the text in Post #432

And Jesus was asked a simple YES or NO question too....and he refused to play by some of these religious leaders rules! Is it right to pay taxes to Ceasar or not...YES or NO and that's what they wanted! Lk 20:22 When something needed to be explained out he explained it out. So why is it Reformedguy that you don't want anything to do with that sort of thing? So let me give you my YES nor NO question....Did Jesus always answer things by just giving a YES or NO?



I did no such thing. It's all in post #432 for all to see. I merely shortened up the later post to show you, you were wrong. God didn't tell Amalite to do anything and you said he did.

Your other examples are answered in 432, it's the same basic principle. And if you read 432 you would have seen I challenged you that God having some of those people groups including children exterminated which would have been quickly by the sword is a far, far thing to call that equivalent to seeing people raped, used for impure lust of the flesh and every hideous diabolical thing one can imagine and come back and say God ordained it! How far from the heart of God can one get?


But then again you know right that Non-Calvinsits think the same about you and yours.

Or is it rather that Calvinists are trying to tell others what God does with his creation....and we don't accept it based on what the Word of God says.
Umm...no you did not. Yes or no?
 

HealTheLand

Active member
And Jesus was asked a simple YES or NO question too....and he refused to play by some of these religious leaders rules! Is it right to pay taxes to Ceasar or not...YES or NO and that's what they wanted! Lk 20:22 When something needed to be explained out he explained it out. So why is it Reformedguy that you don't want anything to do with that sort of thing? So let me give you my YES nor NO question....Did Jesus always answer things by just giving a YES or NO?

yes, we should speak more how the Spirit directs -- not how others demand (love God).

demands aren't of agape necessarily anyway -- if just of wanting to be right, or argue.
 

HealTheLand

Active member
And Jesus was asked a simple YES or NO question too....and he refused to play by some of these religious leaders rules! Is it right to pay taxes to Ceasar or not...YES or NO and that's what they wanted! Lk 20:22 When something needed to be explained out he explained it out. So why is it Reformedguy that you don't want anything to do with that sort of thing? So let me give you my YES nor NO question....Did Jesus always answer things by just giving a YES or NO?.

also, Jesus, being l o v e ... He would probably be more accepting than dismissive towards you I would wager.

He would try to understand you -- as much as He could -- where you are at. He would see the angle(s) you are coming from and know that people usually -- know only in part, and see not with full light shining from on High.

He would take all of this into account (or just know it)... i.e. you know "in part", are seeing from certain angles possibly -- which might be / probably are true in ways (pieces of a great big puzzle), you see from your current level (s) of understanding also but that's okay and is maybe how / where God has led you / helped you to understand -- at this present time, and is what you need to think about / believe about -- at this time -- to help you spiritually, also you possibly won't stay where you are in all your ideas / beliefs atm, but will continue to learn and grow in grace and in knowledge.

not sure what He would say, having taken all that into account and not being of any sect / group / church / ism.
 
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