I admit I am in denial -- denial there is truth in what you say.
God purposefully predestines (Eph 1:11) according to scripture.
Nothing in thus world occurs by blind fate, or luck.
Only Pagans believe in blind fate and luck.
God purposefully predestines (Eph 1:11) according to scripture.
Nothing in thus world occurs by blind fate, or luck.
Only Pagans believe in blind fate and luck.
christ_undivided
Well-known member
It is more complicated than this boiled down lumpy gravy you've made.
I agree there are senses of fatalism within certain views of determinism held by some Calvinists.
Using you as an example, very few people get into the details of these arguments because they are complicated. People like simple things. That is why you're digging through commentary to establish your view instead of identifying all the pieces yourself and building your theology building yourself.
I know that hurts but it is the Truth. Concepts of determinism are complex and many people get it wrong. I've watched the arguments change over the years. The Internet is full of misinformation concerning the origins and arguments of influential people on the subject. That is why you must work with the pieces.
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Is belief in blind fate and luck ... predetermined?
Belief in blind faith and luck is error which identifies those who believe in such things as either unlearned, unsaved, or both.
@Chalcedon
Theo1689
Well-known member
You've "proved" nothing.
All horses are animals.
Not all animals are horses.
All fatalism is determinism.
Not all determinism is fatalism.
Theo1689
Well-known member
You're a legend in your own mind.
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
What would you say that Providence is?
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define what you mean by that and I will let you know.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Simple as that!!! Calvinist "ELECTION" is an arbitrary Crap-shoot. Nobody has any CHOICE in the matter (either way).
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yes choice is just an illusion for a robot thats been preprogrammed
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Exactly. Everything serves a purpose. Proverbs 16:4. There is no purpose in fatalism.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
My sentiments respecting the providence of God are these: It is present with, and presides over, all things; and all things, according to their essences, quantities, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, what is still more, I do not take away from the government of the divine providence even sins themselves, whether we take into our consideration their commencement, their progress, or their terminationdefine what you mean by that and I will let you know.
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No I do not by that definition its determinism/fatalism/predestination( calvinism ) under a different name.
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I'm with Roger Olsons definition here :
Most people know that Arminians do not believe that God micromanages history or human lives–especially not in terms of evil. That is, Arminians do not believe that God designs, foreordains or renders certain sinful acts. Sin and evil are included in God’s consequent will, not God’s antecedent will. God governs them but does not design, foreordain or render them certain. I have expressed my own overall view of God’s providence this way: “God is in charge but not in control.” However, some Arminians objected to that. I’m not going to repeat my explanation or defense of that here.
Most people know that Arminians do not believe that God micromanages history or human lives–especially not in terms of evil. That is, Arminians do not believe that God designs, foreordains or renders certain sinful acts. Sin and evil are included in God’s consequent will, not God’s antecedent will. God governs them but does not design, foreordain or render them certain. I have expressed my own overall view of God’s providence this way: “God is in charge but not in control.” However, some Arminians objected to that. I’m not going to repeat my explanation or defense of that here.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Sorry, Im confused; are you saying this is Fatalism?
I predict that won't make a difference to the contemporary, neo-Christians active at CARM.My sentiments respecting the providence of God are these: It is present with, and presides over, all things; and all things, according to their essences, quantities, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, what is still more, I do not take away from the government of the divine providence even sins themselves, whether we take into our consideration their commencement, their progress, or their termination
Neo-Arminianism. ^^
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yes I like neo christian as a description for calvinists. I concur.