If God creates the scenario and randomness, then it is random even to God. But God can't not foreknow it. Otherwise randomness doesn't exist altogether.
If God creates the scenario and randomness, then it is random even to God. But God can't not foreknow it. Otherwise randomness doesn't exist altogether.
Sketo
Well-known member
This is a contradiction.
If the result is random to God then what is God foreknowing?
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Reformedguy
Well-known member
Exactly. Nothing is random from God's perspective.
.
Since it's random, God foreknows it by luck. It is already illogical that God exists for no reason. But He's God. So it shouldn't be any surprise how God knows things. Why should we put Him in a logical box?
Since it's random, God foreknows it by luck. It is already illogical that God exists for no reason. But He's God. So it shouldn't be any surprise how God knows things. Why should we put Him in a logical box?
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Why is it illogical God exists for no reason?
It is logical because He is God. And thus what He can do is logical because He is God.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So to God a married bachelor would be logical??
Sketo
Well-known member
To us things can appear random, lucky, illogical, magical, or miraculous but to apply this to God is just ignerance.
These are descriptive words that we as finite creatures ascribe to the occurrence of things that we do not have all the information to fully understand. To describe God in this way is to say there are things in existence that God just does not have enough information to understand.
I would be careful of describing God in these terms if I were you.
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
Let's stick with our agreement for a while, that God is the Prime Mover. Another word for this is God is the First Cause. So I think the next question should be, 'Is God the First Cause of everything which comes to pass or not?'
Isn't it true that arguing against God being the First Cause in your life, for anything you can think of that has happened to you; means you really believe that God isn't the Prime Mover?
G
guest1
Guest
You are proving fatalism/determinism are the same and making a distinction without a difference.
So thanks !
e v e 21
Well-known member
there is an incredible text written on fatalism. Dodds, The Greeks and the Irrational.
fatalism's essentially a greek thing at heart, as to its inception,
and relates to the greek fear of their gods (=satanic beings, fallen angels)
concerning their determinism of every detail of life...
the greeks feared those beings.. Christ had not come yet,
this was pre 0AD. and the greeks felt forced to obey them... it was bondage.
---fatalism is based on the capricious and cruel nature of those gods (fallen angels).
it's interesting the term got adapted to situations outside its original intent.
that the gods were fatal to the soul, and compare, every greek tale tells of the gods 'fooling man.'
On one hand it all (the greek philosophy) seems so rational.... (e.g., Aristotle's substance and causality, plato's view of God as unaffected, the unmoved mover etc.)
until it's utter empty sickening cruelty is understood.
the book is a download on scribd.
www.scribd.com
Or it is on amazon.
Bringing this up because Christianity and fatalism have zero in common.
God Directing All reality and His outcome happening, is not fatalism whatsoever.
That said, determinism and free will are early modern concepts, after descartes and after the medieval was ending, and related to the "self" that esau was bringing in. It has different roots than does fatalism. Different concept but also, not Christian. The greeks had no idea of a 'self' or 'free will'. Only a deity had 'will'.
Saying that God knows and directs all reality and that He decides what will happen
(which is TRUE!) is NOT
the same as any of these essentially pagan terms and systems:
fatalism (greek) -- explained above in cliff note form
determinism (early modern) -- not explained due to space
occasionalism (leibniz) -- not explained due to space
free will-ism (early modern) -- not explained due to space
debating all this is a waste of time...
God never uses such terms...does He
fatalism's essentially a greek thing at heart, as to its inception,
and relates to the greek fear of their gods (=satanic beings, fallen angels)
concerning their determinism of every detail of life...
the greeks feared those beings.. Christ had not come yet,
this was pre 0AD. and the greeks felt forced to obey them... it was bondage.
---fatalism is based on the capricious and cruel nature of those gods (fallen angels).
it's interesting the term got adapted to situations outside its original intent.
that the gods were fatal to the soul, and compare, every greek tale tells of the gods 'fooling man.'
On one hand it all (the greek philosophy) seems so rational.... (e.g., Aristotle's substance and causality, plato's view of God as unaffected, the unmoved mover etc.)
until it's utter empty sickening cruelty is understood.
the book is a download on scribd.
Dodds, The Greeks and The Irrational (In) BB & | PDF
Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.
Or it is on amazon.
Bringing this up because Christianity and fatalism have zero in common.
God Directing All reality and His outcome happening, is not fatalism whatsoever.
That said, determinism and free will are early modern concepts, after descartes and after the medieval was ending, and related to the "self" that esau was bringing in. It has different roots than does fatalism. Different concept but also, not Christian. The greeks had no idea of a 'self' or 'free will'. Only a deity had 'will'.
Saying that God knows and directs all reality and that He decides what will happen
(which is TRUE!) is NOT
the same as any of these essentially pagan terms and systems:
fatalism (greek) -- explained above in cliff note form
determinism (early modern) -- not explained due to space
occasionalism (leibniz) -- not explained due to space
free will-ism (early modern) -- not explained due to space
debating all this is a waste of time...
God never uses such terms...does He
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G
guest1
Guest
yes its Augustinianism/Calvinism since calvin was a student of augustine. Their roots are pagan, and their authority was the government as the rule. Jesus told us to not be of the world and the church became Caesar under their rule. They were of the world.there is an incredible text written on fatalism. Dodds, The Greeks and the Irrational.
fatalism's essentially a greek thing at heart, as to its inception,
and relates to the greek fear of their gods (=satanic beings, fallen angels)
concerning their determinism of every detail of life...
the greeks feared those beings.. Christ had not come yet,
this was pre 0AD. and the greeks felt forced to obey them... it was bondage.
---fatalism is based on the capricious and cruel nature of those gods (fallen angels).
it's interesting the term got adapted to situations outside its original intent.
that the gods were fatal to the soul, and compare, every greek tale tells of the gods 'fooling man.'
On one hand it all (the greek philosophy) seems so rational.... (e.g., Aristotle's substance and causality, plato's view of God as unaffected, the unmoved mover etc.)
until it's utter empty sickening cruelty is understood.
the book is a download on scribd.
Dodds, The Greeks and The Irrational (In) BB & | PDF
Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.
Or it is on amazon.
Bringing this up because Christianity and fatalism have zero in common.
God Directing All reality and His outcome , is not fatalism whatsoever.
That said, determinism is an early modern concept,after descartes, after the medieval was ending, and related to the "self" that esau was bringing in. It has different roots than does fatalism. Different concept but also, not Christian.
Saying that God knows and directs all reality and that He decides what will happen
(which is TRUE!) is NOT
the same as any of these essentially pagan terms and systems:
fatalism (greek) -- explained above in cliff note form
determinism(early modern) -- not explained due to space
occasionalism (leibniz) -- not explained due to space
free will-ism (early modern) -- not explained due to space
debating all this is a waste of time...
God never uses such terms...does He
e v e 21
Well-known member
ER Dodds was a protestant(supposed) and a classicist scholar and professor of Greek ,btw. No slouch.
He also wrote Pagan and Christian in an Age of Anxiety, but I have not read that one. Probably on Scribd too. I won't vouch for it as I didn't read it.
en.wikipedia.org
He also wrote Pagan and Christian in an Age of Anxiety, but I have not read that one. Probably on Scribd too. I won't vouch for it as I didn't read it.
E. R. Dodds - Wikipedia
God prime moves the creation of a scenario that can make libertarian prime decisions, but not outside of God's omni ability or range given.
Whete does he prove that?You are proving fatalism/determinism are the same and making a distinction without a difference.
So thanks !
e v e 21
Well-known member
the' prime mover' is a pagan term for their god ..
that term is from Aristotle. A platonist.
Does not refer to God.
Oh well.
G
guest1
Guest
most have no idea what influence he had upon augustine which in turn trickled down to the reformation period with its leaders.