ferengi claims: I know darwin is wrong on evo.

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Like you, even Darwin couldn't explain how mutations add up.
We are discussing Evolution, not Darwin. The Theory of Evolution has expanded and changed (evolved) since Darwin as we get better information. And the theory of evolution thoroughly explains mutations. How can we prove it? Well, it explains them so well that we use evolution to create vaccines for new Flu and Covid mutations.

If Evolution is wrong then you'd have to explain why we use it successfully every day. Luck? Coincidence?

Arguing against Evolution or saying the earth is 6,000 years old is just nonsense. For those to be true we'd have to be wrong about literally everything in science. Almost all of modern physics, chemistry, medicine, and more rely on a foundation of Evolution and a 14 billion year old universe.

To believe Evo is wrong is to just reject reality. It certainly does not make Christians seem like they are dealing with reality, evidence, or facts in any reasonable way.

You'd be better off saying you do not believe in gravity. At least that science is currently in debate :)
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
We are discussing Evolution, not Darwin. The Theory of Evolution has expanded and changed (evolved) since Darwin as we get better information. And the theory of evolution thoroughly explains mutations. How can we prove it? Well, it explains them so well that we use evolution to create vaccines for new Flu and Covid mutations.

No one denies mutations exist.
If Evolution is wrong then you'd have to explain why we use it successfully every day. Luck? Coincidence?

Arguing against Evolution or saying the earth is 6,000 years old is just nonsense. For those to be true we'd have to be wrong about literally everything in science. Almost all of modern physics, chemistry, medicine, and more rely on a foundation of Evolution and a 14 billion year old universe.

To believe Evo is wrong is to just reject reality. It certainly does not make Christians seem like they are dealing with reality, evidence, or facts in any reasonable way.

You'd be better off saying you do not believe in gravity. At least that science is currently in debate :)
Then support the backbone of evo-ism....show how mutations add up.

Just for the record...darwin in mentined in the thread title. Ferengi is right.
 

Algor

Well-known member
No one denies mutations exist.

Then support the backbone of evo-ism....show how mutations add up.

Just for the record...darwin in mentined in the thread title. Ferengi is right.
Honestly, the arguments over HOW evolution occurred are endless, and many may never be resolved. The fact THAT it occured is a well settled scientific fact. That's the "backbone". Not the mechanisms.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Honestly, the arguments over HOW evolution occurred are endless, and many may never be resolved. The fact THAT it occured is a well settled scientific fact. That's the "backbone". Not the mechanisms.
"well settled scientific fact".....then why is there such a debate? Why can't you explain how mutations add up and form organelle?

Why can't you explain why soft tissue is found in dino bones supposodly ove 65 MY's old?
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
No one denies mutations exist.
Yes. And they are very well understood. You seemed to say that Darwin and Evo could not make sense of mutatioins. And that is false.
Then support the backbone of evo-ism....show how mutations add up.
I do not know what 'mutations add up' means. However, if you want to understand Evolution then I am a poor teacher.

Try this - best to learn from the experts: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_02

The Berkley team explains mutation, change over time, microevolution, macroevolution. It should answer your questions.
Just for the record...darwin in mentined in the thread title. Ferengi is right.
So...you think because Darwin was wrong then the Theory of Evolution is wrong? I am not following you any more. Darwin got lots wrong. We improved the theory.

This is like throwing out all of physics because Newton got some parts of Gravity wrong. It is nonsensical.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Yes. And they are very well understood. You seemed to say that Darwin and Evo could not make sense of mutatioins. And that is false.
Just to prove a point.....how many, what % of mutations are considered to enhance the fitness of an animal?

I'm not looking for an exact number as I would imagine there is a spread so a ballpark number is sufficient.....but, I bet you can't find a number presented by a well recognized source.

So, NO...your so-called beneficial mutation numbers are not very well understood.
 

Algor

Well-known member
"well settled scientific fact".....then why is there such a debate?
There isn't one, really. As far as astronomy, geology, biology, whatever, evolution by descent with modification over prolonged time spans is right there with a heliocentric solar system.
Why can't you explain how mutations add up and form organelle?
Because I don't know. Seems obvious. Not everything important or interesting is known. It may be that some of the most interesting questions aren't answerable.
Why can't you explain why soft tissue is found in dino bones supposodly ove 65 MY's old?
Meh, I'm not a paleontologist, or a geologist. I can say that it doesn't shock me if some residual organic remains were present after permineralization, but after all, if you go to Joggins in Nova Scotia, you can see structurally beautifully preserved carbonised remains of leaves all over the beach, and I've seen ammonite shells lined with beautiful mother of pearl, hundreds of millions of years old, so a bit of collagen on much younger rock doesn't exactly shake my world.
 
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CrowCross

Well-known member
There isn't one, really. As far as astronomy, geology, biology, whatever, evolution by descent with modification over prolonged time spans is right there with a heliocentric solar system.

Because I don't know. Seems obvious. Not everything important or interesting is known. It may be that some of the most interesting questions aren't answerable.

Meh, I'm not a paleontologist, or a geologist. I can say that it doesn't shock me if some residual organic remains were present after permineralization, but after all, if you go to Joggins in Nova Scotia, you can see structurally beautifully preserved carbonised remains of leaves all over the beach, and I've seen ammonite shells lined with beautiful mother of pearl, hundreds of millions of years old, so a bit of collagen on much younger rock doesn't exactly shake my world.
I think you just demonstrated to me that what you believe about evo-ism is based upon faith.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
What do you mean by "faith"?
Well, in your last post you said....Because I don't know...and you also said "I'm not a paleontologist, or a geologist."

...which sounds like you just accept the so-called theory of evo-ism. Faith
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Just to prove a point.....how many, what % of mutations are considered to enhance the fitness of an animal?
They explain it thoroughly in the link. If you are really open to the science and feel you might be able to say, 'huh - the evidence is more than I thought - Evo seems real' then just read through the explanation of the evidence. I think you'll find they are able to prove more than you may think - its fascinating.

If, however, you feel you could never accept evolution then this is moot. You'd just reject anything I say so there is not much point.

The reality is that Evolution is being used successfully to create medicine and gene therapy all over the world. Believing that Evo is wrong is to ignore vaccines and medical treatments that work. It seems a little crazy.
I'm not looking for an exact number as I would imagine there is a spread so a ballpark number is sufficient.....but, I bet you can't find a number presented by a well recognized source.
I do not see how this number could possibly invalidate the mountain of evidence for Evolution. But if you want to find it then check out the link.

Evolution does not hang on this data point. They continue to develop vaccines using Evolution as a bedrock - and I do not know how that can possibly be uncompelling.
So, NO...your so-called beneficial mutation numbers are not very well understood.
This is just false. Beneficial mutations that help a species survive are extremely well understood. There are aspects of mutations we still do not completely understand but that does not invalidate Evolution.

If you do not believe in Evolution or that the universe is 14 billion years old then you are just not in touch with reality dude. Some people are so committed to their religion that they will ignore the plain fact that Evolution, Gravity, Geology, etc are used daily to create things.

Its like denying the Moon because an ancient book says so.

Anyhoo, my hope is that you can be open to the science that everyone on the planet uses and keep your faith. I think you can believe in God and evolution - just think of evolution is our way of understand what God did.

But denying Evolution and The Big Bang just makes Christen seem like they are not to be taken seriously like Flat Earthers or others who deny obvious truths for their faith.

But either way we will still use Evolution to create the next Covid vaccine weather you believe or not :)
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Just to prove a point.....how many, what % of mutations are considered to enhance the fitness of an animal?
I can't answer this question because I'm no expert. But what's your expertise in this?

Have you looked for an answer to your question? If so, where and how hard did you look?
 

Algor

Well-known member
Well, in your last post you said....Because I don't know...and you also said "I'm not a paleontologist, or a geologist."

...which sounds like you just accept the so-called theory of evo-ism. Faith
Well, I have a couple of degrees in biology, and took a full year course in university in paleontology, and have been in and out of labs and research all my adult life, so all I'm saying is my lack of surprise might be poorly informed. But no, it's not on faith: its just that it doesn't surprise me much. It would also not shake my world if someone managed to show that such things were really lab artifact.

Really, its all interesting but I wouldn't choose this stuff as a hill to die on.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Why can't you explain why soft tissue is found in dino bones supposodly ove 65 MY's old?

The controversial discovery of 68-million-year-old soft tissue from the bones of a Tyrannosaurus rex finally has a physical explanation. According to new research, iron in the dinosaur's body preserved the tissue before it could decay.

From an article found here.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
They explain it thoroughly in the link. If you are really open to the science and feel you might be able to say, 'huh - the evidence is more than I thought - Evo seems real' then just read through the explanation of the evidence. I think you'll find they are able to prove more than you may think - its fascinating.

If, however, you feel you could never accept evolution then this is moot. You'd just reject anything I say so there is not much point.

The reality is that Evolution is being used successfully to create medicine and gene therapy all over the world. Believing that Evo is wrong is to ignore vaccines and medical treatments that work. It seems a little crazy.

I do not see how this number could possibly invalidate the mountain of evidence for Evolution. But if you want to find it then check out the link.

Evolution does not hang on this data point. They continue to develop vaccines using Evolution as a bedrock - and I do not know how that can possibly be uncompelling.

This is just false. Beneficial mutations that help a species survive are extremely well understood. There are aspects of mutations we still do not completely understand but that does not invalidate Evolution.

If you do not believe in Evolution or that the universe is 14 billion years old then you are just not in touch with reality dude. Some people are so committed to their religion that they will ignore the plain fact that Evolution, Gravity, Geology, etc are used daily to create things.

Its like denying the Moon because an ancient book says so.

Anyhoo, my hope is that you can be open to the science that everyone on the planet uses and keep your faith. I think you can believe in God and evolution - just think of evolution is our way of understand what God did.

But denying Evolution and The Big Bang just makes Christen seem like they are not to be taken seriously like Flat Earthers or others who deny obvious truths for their faith.

But either way we will still use Evolution to create the next Covid vaccine weather you believe or not :)
You didn't answer the question....how many, what % of mutations are considered to enhance the fitness of an animal?

Why do you feel the need to brush that question off?
 
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