Fetus comes from Latin offspring, little one.

Temujin

Well-known member
It would be much easier to wash out cells if they were not referred to as a baby. No matter what those cells are called, they are still unique in their DNA, alive, and human. They merely aren't persons.




While abortion is not legally murder, it is still the destruction of human life. Whether or not it's a person depends on the stage of development.



Not wanting a baby wouldn't make a female any less pregnant. It's a biological state. Form the moment of conception it's human and alive, only personhood would require development as a criterion.
I have some sympathy with what you say. What do you regard as the criteria for personhood?
 
D

Diogenes

Guest
I have some sympathy with what you say. What do you regard as the criteria for personhood?

In the least, neural correlates of consciousness/cognition. I do believe that individuals in comas are persons. I believe that brain death is the death of the person. I do believe that some animals may be persons and thus I'm open to animal rights, eg like the great apes. I would hazard humans obtain personhood sometime during the 2nd or 3rd trimester. I don't believe that having the qualia of pain is necessary or sufficent in determining personhood given individuals with congenital insensitive to pain (CIP). I don't believe the zygote or blastocyst have personhood despite being unique individual human life. I do believe the best way to prevent abortion is through comprehensive sex education. I have no qualms about Plan B.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
In the least, neural correlates of consciousness/cognition. I do believe that individuals in comas are persons. I believe that brain death is the death of the person. I do believe that some animals may be persons and thus I'm open to animal rights, eg like the great apes. I would hazard humans obtain personhood sometime during the 2nd or 3rd trimester. I don't believe that having the qualia of pain is necessary or sufficent in determining personhood given individuals with congenital insensitive to pain (CIP). I don't believe the zygote or blastocyst have personhood despite being unique individual human life. I do believe the best way to prevent abortion is through comprehensive sex education. I have no qualms about Plan B.
I would agree with all of this, however, cognition and self-awareness is difficult to measure. I prefer viability ex utero as a marker between the foetus and the person. If the foetus is sufficiently developed to survive removal from the umbilical cord and being cared for by someone other than the mother, then it should be regarded as a person. Thus 20 weeks would be my marker, as an arbitrary legal line is necessary. Abortions later than that should be sanctioned only if the mother's life is in danger or if the foetal development is so compromised that it would not survive birth in any event.
 
D

Diogenes

Guest
I would agree with all of this, however, cognition and self-awareness is difficult to measure.

Hence why I said the neural correlates, not the actual cognition. I also use neural correlates to prevent the loss of the status of person while sleeping, in coma, etc.


I prefer viability ex utero as a marker between the foetus and the person. If the foetus is sufficiently developed to survive removal from the umbilical cord and being cared for by someone other than the mother, then it should be regarded as a person.

There's no difference biologically or neurally between the foetus in the womb and outside the womb. What you're suggesting would be like saying a person in a coma on life support isn't a person.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Hence why I said the neural correlates, not the actual cognition. I also use neural correlates to prevent the loss of the status of person while sleeping, in coma, etc.




There's no difference biologically or neurally between the foetus in the womb and outside the womb. What you're suggesting would be like saying a person in a coma on life support isn't a person.
Not at all. The difference is that a person is an independent being, not an adjunct of the woman. That is the difference between the foetus and the baby. In my view.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
Notice neurotic pro-deathers don't go into hysteria when a mom is called a mom in English while the Latin is matr.

We use English in American hospitals. Baby.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Notice neurotic pro-deathers don't go into hysteria when a mom is called a mom in English while the Latin is matr.

We use English in American hospitals. Baby.
So what does the word "mom" mean since it's not an English word as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary? Or is a shortening of the word Momus?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Notice neurotic pro-deathers don't go into hysteria when a mom is called a mom in English while the Latin is matr.

We use English in American hospitals. Baby.
In British hospitals we use the term "matron" from the Latin root "matr " meaning mother. As many matrons in modern hospitals are male, the word clearly doesn't mean the same as the Latin root from which it came. Much the same as the English word "foetus".

The only one having hysterics is you. In seems to be a permanent state. Incidentally, hysterics comes from a Greek word meaning "uterus".
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Abortion people can't discuss the human soul.
Materialists can't discuss the soul.

I have held in my hands a baby under 2 pounds on which we performed surgery. Who determines if they have a soul?
That's nothing. I have held in my hands a baby under 1 pound on which we performed surgery. We had to use teensy-weensy tools.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Abortion people can't discuss the human soul.
Materialists can't discuss the soul.

I have held in my hands a baby under 2 pounds on which we performed surgery. Who determines if they have a soul?
And did the baby or you have priapism when you and Walter Mitty performed surgery?
And did you just wait for it to go away, or did you use a cold spoon, or did you get one of the theatre assistants to massage it away?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
And did the baby or you have priapism when you and Walter Mitty performed surgery?
And did you just wait for it to go away, or did you use a cold spoon, or did you get one of the theatre assistants to massage it away?
You shouldn't feed his fantasies. The poor sap has never been in an operating theatre while conscious.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
You shouldn't feed his fantasies. The poor sap has never been in an operating theatre while conscious.
Your claim is false. In fact I expect atheists to lie about my credentials. Over 4,000 cases. Small percent are OB. The other problem you have is that none of the American Board Certified OB docs who know me very well agree with your ugly dishonest sources. Like the quack you heard "on the radio"

When you mumbled about a a dead baby rotting in the womb you certified a total loss of credibility. You did it again when you mumbled and didn't know a D&C is not a D&E abortion.

This is why people don't trust atheeists.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Your claim is false. In fact I expect atheists to lie about my credentials. Over 4,000 cases. Small percent are OB. The other problem you have is that none of the American Board Certified OB docs who know me very well agree with your ugly dishonest sources. Like the quack you heard "on the radio"
So what are your "credentials" and who are the "American Board Certified OB docs" who know you and Walter Mitty well?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Your claim is false. In fact I expect atheists to lie about my credentials. Over 4,000 cases. Small percent are OB. The other problem you have is that none of the American Board Certified OB docs who know me very well agree with your ugly dishonest sources. Like the quack you heard "on the radio"

When you mumbled about a a dead baby rotting in the womb you certified a total loss of credibility. You did it again when you mumbled and didn't know a D&C is not a D&E abortion.

This is why people don't trust atheeists.
Lol! Dream on matey. Tomorrow you can try on the cowboy outfit from the dressing up box. Or maybe the Commodore. We haven't seen that for a while.
 
Top