Find me one trinitarian who believes that.

[Yahchristian]

TRINITARIANS believe the man Jesus came into existence (was created then assumed) when he was born to Mary.

Find me one trinitarian who believes that.

Seriously ??? How about 1,300,000,000 !!!

That is how many Trinitarians hold to the Catholic Catechism, OVER HALF of all professing Trinitarians.

Catholic Catechism 466... Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb.
In other words... The man Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in Mary's womb.

Catholic Catechism 366... The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents.
In other words... Jesus' human spiritual soul was CREATED as are the spiritual souls of all humans.

Catholic Catechism 461... The Church calls "Incarnation" the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature.
In other words... Jesus' CREATED spiritual soul was then ASSUMED by the second Person of the Trinity.

Since you don't agree with a billion of your fellow Trinitarians, what DO YOU believe...

1) WHEN did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

2) HOW did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

The Catholic Catechism says...
WHEN = The instant the body of Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb.
HOW = Jesus' spiritual soul was created and then assumed.

I say...
WHEN=The instant Yahweh created the supernatural and spacetime of the universe.
HOW = Whereas Yahweh created a spiritual soul for each of us, Jesus' spiritual soul is a morphe of Yahweh.

 

[CrowCross]

Seriously ??? How about 1,300,000,000 !!!

That is how many Trinitarians hold to the Catholic Catechism, OVER HALF of all professing Trinitarians.

Catholic Catechism 466... Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb.
In other words... The man Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in Mary's womb.

Catholic Catechism 366... The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents.
In other words... Jesus' human spiritual soul was CREATED as are the spiritual souls of all humans.

Catholic Catechism 461... The Church calls "Incarnation" the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature.
In other words... Jesus' CREATED spiritual soul was then ASSUMED by the second Person of the Trinity.

Since you don't agree with a billion of your fellow Trinitarians, what DO YOU believe...

1) WHEN did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

2) HOW did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

The Catholic Catechism says...
WHEN = The instant the body of Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb.
HOW = Jesus' spiritual soul was created and then assumed.

I say...
WHEN=The instant Yahweh created the supernatural and spacetime of the universe.
HOW = Whereas Yahweh created a spiritual soul for each of us, Jesus' spiritual soul is a morphe of Yahweh.

As expected...you're backpedaling....."The man Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in Mary's womb."

I'm talking about Jesus Himself, the eternal Jesus coming into existence....The Word always was prior to incarnation.

Find me a trinitarian who disagrees.....From what I understand your theology states, at one time....Jesus wasn't.

 

[Yahchristian]

I'm talking about Jesus Himself, the eternal Jesus coming into existence....The Word always was prior to incarnation.

I specifically said…

“TRINITARIANS believe the man Jesus came into existence (was created then assumed) when he was born to Mary.”

“In other words... The man Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in Mary's womb.”

To which you responded…

“Find me one trinitarian who believes that.“

Do you agree I found you over a billion?

 

[CrowCross]

I specifically said…

“TRINITARIANS believe the man Jesus came into existence (was created then assumed) when he was born to Mary.”

“In other words... The man Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in Mary's womb.”

To which you responded…

“Find me one trinitarian who believes that.“

Do you agree I found you over a billion?

No, you said Jesus came into existence as if He was a created being.

I would also assume you believe the Father as well as the Holy Spirit were created beings.

 

[Nathan P]

As expected...you're backpedaling....."The man Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in Mary's womb."

I'm talking about Jesus Himself, the eternal Jesus coming into existence....The Word always was prior to incarnation.

Find me a trinitarian who disagrees.....From what I understand your theology states, at one time....Jesus wasn't.

Of course at one time Jesus did not exist as there was only the Word who was with God.

 

[CrowCross]

Of course at one time Jesus did not exist as there was only the Word who was with God.

Didn't exist as an incarnated man at one time.....but existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[TheLayman]

Seriously ??? How about 1,300,000,000 !!!

That is how many Trinitarians hold to the Catholic Catechism, OVER HALF of all professing Trinitarians.

Catholic Catechism 466... Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb.
In other words... The man Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in Mary's womb.

Catholic Catechism 366... The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents.
In other words... Jesus' human spiritual soul was CREATED as are the spiritual souls of all humans.

Catholic Catechism 461... The Church calls "Incarnation" the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature.
In other words... Jesus' CREATED spiritual soul was then ASSUMED by the second Person of the Trinity.

Since you don't agree with a billion of your fellow Trinitarians, what DO YOU believe...

1) WHEN did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

2) HOW did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

The Catholic Catechism says...
WHEN = The instant the body of Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb.
HOW = Jesus' spiritual soul was created and then assumed.

I say...
WHEN=The instant Yahweh created the supernatural and spacetime of the universe.
HOW = Whereas Yahweh created a spiritual soul for each of us, Jesus' spiritual soul is a morphe of Yahweh. TRINITARIANS believe the man Jesus came into existence (was created then assumed) when he was born to Mary.

No "Trinitarian" believes that, nor does the doctrine of the Trinity teach that "the mane Jesus Christ came into existence and was then assumed..." and was then "assumed" by the Son of God. And the Catholic Catechism that you have linked to does not teach that...this is a major problem with you, i.e. you actually believe you understand something (which frankly should be fairly easy to understand) when in fact you don't. Then, based on your misunderstanding you start making false claims and asking questions based on the false claims.

Nothing states that the Word, the eternal Son of God, assumed "the man Jesus" created in Mary's womb. The Son of God assumed the human nature in Mary's womb (read that carefully) at the moment of conception. Yes Jesus had a complete human spiritual soul, Apollinarianism was an early heresy. Perhaps you believe a soul, ontologically speaking, is a person...it is not. A human being possesses a soul, a person is not a soul. Please don't start with things like "SOS" (Save our souls) or something that says, "so many souls were lost that day," etc. I'm speaking ontologically, a soul is not a person, a person has a soul.

TheLayman

 

[Yahchristian]

Nothing states that the Word, the eternal Son of God, assumed "the man Jesus" created in Mary's womb. The Son of God assumed the human nature in Mary's womb.

So what do you see as the difference between “the man Jesus” and “the human nature in Mary’s womb”?

 

[TheLayman]

So what do you see as the difference between “the man Jesus” and “the human nature in Mary’s womb”?

Well, a "human nature' is not referred to as "a man," but rather a human nature. The Son did not assume "a human person, i.e. a man " or as you put it, "the man Jesus Christ," but rather "a complete human nature." The "man Jesus Christ" never "existed" absent the person of Son of God.

TheLayman

 

[Yahchristian]

Well, a "human nature' is not referred to as "a man," but rather a human nature.

But you did not say “a” human nature but rather “the” human nature which would specify a particular human nature you said is “in Mary’s womb”.

YOU did not say… The Son of God assumed (a) human nature.

YOU said… The Son of God assumed the human nature in Mary's womb.

Do you see a difference between those two statements?

 

[TheLayman]

But you did not say “a” human nature but rather “the” human nature which would specify a particular human nature you said is “in Mary’s womb”.

You can't be serious...and I mean that seriously. You don't know the difference in an indefinite and definite article? Again, seriously? Here, let's look at my sentence that you quoted:

Well, a "human nature' is not referred to as "a man," but rather a human nature.
In that sentence, neither "human nature" or "a man" are generic terms, they are abstract. However, the Son of God assumed "the human nature" (the one and only specific one in Mary's womb, there were not many human natures ) in Mary's womb.

YOU did not say… The Son of God assumed (a) human nature.

If you mean a "single one" then "a human nature" will do.

YOU said… The Son of God assumed the human nature in Mary's womb.

Yes, He did not assume all of mankind's individual human natures, nor did He assume a human nature and then jump into Mary's womb (which I believe is what you teach though I could be wrong), He assumed the human nature in Mary's womb at the moment of conception.

Do you see a difference between those two statements?

Yes I do...do you? What is it exactly that you are trying to quibble about...if you have a point, just make it and stop trolling. If there is something you don't understand then ask it clearly.

TheLayman

 

[Yahchristian]

The Son did not assume "a human person, i.e. a man " or as you put it, "the man Jesus Christ," but rather "a complete human nature." The "man Jesus Christ" never "existed" absent the person of Son of God.

As I put it ???

I was just quoting THE BIBLE...

1 Timothy 2:5... For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Just to clarify the doctrine of the Trinity...

1) WHEN did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

2) Was the man Christ Jesus’ spiritual soul CREATED?

 

[Kampioen]

As I put it ???

I was just quoting THE BIBLE...

1 Timothy 2:5... For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Just to clarify the doctrine of the Trinity...

1) WHEN did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

2) Was the man Christ Jesus’ spiritual soul CREATED?

Jesus' soul came into existence when it was created with conception. However, it is comprised of the hypostatic union ie the divine Word and created human senses/nature. Jesus is God ie the Word under the influence of the human senses and body, comprising a man.

 

[Yahchristian]

Jesus' soul came into existence when it was created with conception.

If as you say, Jesus' soul came into existence when it was created with conception...

When did "the man Christ Jesus" come into existence?

Note: I said "the man" Christ Jesus.

It would seem that "the man" would come into existence the same time "his soul" came into existence.

But I would like to know what YOU believe.

 

[TheLayman]

As I put it ???

I was just quoting THE BIBLE...

1 Timothy 2:5... For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And this is what you quoted me as saying just above this: The Son did not assume "a human person, i.e. a man " or as you put it, "the man Jesus Christ," but rather "a complete human nature." The "man Jesus Christ" never "existed" absent the person of Son of God. The fact that what I said has nothing to do with the passage you just quoted means one of the following:

1. You are not actually reading my answers as actual answers to your questions (i.e. in order to understand), but are trying to find something to play word games with.
2. You actually did read my answers and for some reason still show absolutely no understanding of what was explained, which is difficult to believe but I do not want to say it is impossible.

But, giving you the benefit of the doubt I will assume it is number 2. That said, what I understand is that I have attempted to explain to you the difference in "the man Jesus Christ" and "the human nature of Jesus Christ that makes Him a man," and I apparently failed, so I give up and confess that apparently I will be unable to help you with this even though it seems like a simple thing to understand.

Just to clarify the doctrine of the Trinity...

1) WHEN did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

The "human spirit/soul" of Jesus Christ was, like all humans, created by God (not Traducism) and united to the material human body at conception.

2) Was the man Christ Jesus’ spiritual soul CREATED?

See answer to your first question...all human spirits/souls are created by God, including that of Jesus. In case you missed me saying this to you before, a soul is not a human person, a human person possesses a soul.

TheLayman

 

[Yahchristian]

1) WHEN did the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul come into existence?

The "human spirit/soul" of Jesus Christ was, like all humans, created by God (not Traducism) and united to the material human body at conception.

2) Was the man Christ Jesus’ spiritual soul CREATED?

all human spirits/souls are created by God, including that of Jesus.

Olay... so...

If as you say, the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul was created and came into existence at his conception...

Did "the man" Christ Jesus exist before "the man" Christ Jesus' spiritual soul was created?

 

[TheLayman]

Olay... so...

If as you say, the man Christ Jesus' spiritual soul was created and came into existence at his conception...

Did "the man" Christ Jesus exist before "the man" Christ Jesus' spiritual soul was created?

What was my answer to your question #1? You explain to me how this did not answer your question...if you can't, I'm done.

However, the "person" who is Jesus Christ has always existed.

 

[Kampioen]

If as you say, Jesus' soul came into existence when it was created with conception...

When did "the man Christ Jesus" come into existence?

Note: I said "the man" Christ Jesus.

It would seem that "the man" would come into existence the same time "his soul" came into existence.

But I would like to know what YOU believe.

The man Jesus came into existence with His soul.

 

[Yahchristian]

My initial statement concerning "the man" Jesus rather than "the person" Jesus was...

TRINITARIANS believe the man Jesus came into existence (was created then assumed) when he was born to Mary.

To which some Trinitarians objected...

No "Trinitarian" believes that, nor does the doctrine of the Trinity teach that "the man Jesus Christ came into existence and was then assumed..."

Well, two of you have admitted "the man" Jesus was created and came into existence when he was born to Mary...

All human spirits/souls are created by God, including that of Jesus.

Jesus' soul came into existence when it was created with conception.

The man Jesus came into existence with His soul.

The only point left to validate is...

1) Did the eternal Son "assume" the man Christ Jesus' human soul?

2) Did the eternal Son "assume" the man Christ Jesus?


P.S.

Catholic Catechism 469...

What he was, he remained and what he was not, he assumed.

Catholic Catechism 471...

The Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.

And remember, before the Incarnation, the eternal Son was not "the man" Christ Jesus.

 

[TheLayman]

My initial statement concerning "the man" Jesus rather than "the person" Jesus was...


To which some Trinitarians objected...


Well, two of you have admitted "the man" Jesus was created and came into existence when he was born to Mary...

And this is blatant, intentional dishonesty as I "admitted" no such thing. In fact, I entered this thread telling you that was not true...I told you this:

1. All human spirits/souls are created by God, including that of Jesus.
2. The "human spirit/soul" of Jesus Christ was, like all humans, created by God (not Traducism) and united to the material human body at conception.
3. Perhaps you believe a soul, ontologically speaking, is a person...it is not. A human being possesses a soul, a person is not a soul.
4. And this is what you quoted me as saying just above this: The Son did not assume "a human person, i.e. a man " or as you put it, "the man Jesus Christ," but rather "a complete human nature." The "man Jesus Christ" never "existed" absent the person of Son of God.

The person of the Son of God began to exist as a human being, as man, at conception in the womb of Mary (when HE assumed a complete human nature) while remaining God (Jn. 1:1,:14; Phil 2:5-8) That's what I said...

The only point left to validate is...

1) Did the eternal Son "assume" the man Christ Jesus' human soul?

2) Did the eternal Son "assume" the man Christ Jesus?


P.S.

Catholic Catechism 469...


Catholic Catechism 471...


And remember, before the Incarnation, the eternal Son was not "the man" Christ Jesus.

This has already been answered as well. And I said this to you in my last post: What was my answer to your question #1? You explain to me how this did not answer your question...if you can't, I'm done.

Rather than answer that question you started the blatant, blatant dishonesty so I'm done with you.

TheLayman