First Lutheran transgender bishop, Megan Rohrer

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Yes, we are aware that people generally have reasons for what they believe and say. Please consider the following:

"Then He [the risen LORD] said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things." Luke 24:44-48 --NKJV

When the risen Lord opened the minds of the disciples to understand Scripture it wasn't the words on the scrolls that changed. So when the risen Lord told them that, "repentance and the forgiveness of sins would be preached in His name beginning at Jerusalem," the only right way to understand that and preach it is, "repent and be baptized in His name for the forgiveness of sins." It is just as Peter said on Pentecost.

Why is that the only right way to preach it? It is because of who Jesus is and what Scripture says He would do.

"Then I [the LORD GOD] will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezekiel 36:25-27 --NKJV

Some people read that and try to look back to the law, the types, but it was pointing to the future reality. The NT demonstrates this because after Herod usurped the throne everyone and their brother was looking for the Messiah. For example, part of the questioning of John included, "Why do you baptize if you are not...?"

Three take aways from the above is that the failure to believe, teach, and confess that baptism in the name of Jesus, the LORD GOD, is for the forgiveness of sins despises and denies Christ and all that baptism into Him freely gives. The second is that the one baptism from the one Lord God for the forgiveness of sins, etc., was to be believed before, during, and after the incarnation. And the third is that it is a basis of there being no relative pronoun in Mark 16:16 which turns believed away from baptized. He who believed and was baptized shall be saved.

That is the Prophetic and Apostolic witness in this regard.
Water Baptism and Communion only confers any spiritual blessing if the person partaking of it has been already saved!
 

Nic

Well-known member
I am just saying that water baptism by itself saved none, as the person receiving that must have faith in Lord jesus!
Where we disagree is on what is baptism. Water baptism is a bit redundant if a person normally washes with water. They baptized couches for cleaning. So yes water baptism simply means to wash. But baptism from God for tge forgiveness of sins is surely something more than washing especially done in God's name. A person is baptized in God’s name. Anytime a person did something in God’s name, it was the same as God performing that work. This is how we understand God is working in baptism. Moses gives us lots of examples. Moses did as God commanded with an exception of disobedience and God worked miracles. Moses didn't work miracles yet Moses did some act/work/rite and then God worked the miraculous. This is how it is with baptism, it's commanded by God to go and do in God's name and we obey the command and then God as many times before works in this case baptism.
Thanks for your cordial response.
Nic🙂
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Where we disagree is on what is baptism. Water baptism is a bit redundant if a person normally washes with water. They baptized couches for cleaning. So yes water baptism simply means to wash. But baptism from God for tge forgiveness of sins is surely something more than washing especially done in God's name. A person is baptized in God’s name. Anytime a person did something in God’s name, it was the same as God performing that work. This is how we understand God is working in baptism. Moses gives us lots of examples. Moses did as God commanded with an exception of disobedience and God worked miracles. Moses didn't work miracles yet Moses did some act/work/rite and then God worked the miraculous. This is how it is with baptism, it's commanded by God to go and do in God's name and we obey the command and then God as many times before works in this case baptism.
Thanks for your cordial response.
Nic🙂
When is the sinner justified and reconciled to god, when they believe in Jesus as their Lord and savior, or when water baptized?
 

Nic

Well-known member
When is the sinner justified and reconciled to god, when they believe in Jesus as their Lord and savior, or when water baptized?
In the context of this exchange, we are justified and reconciled when the freely given gift of faith is apprehended whether through word or sacrament. If a person already believes then they are surely assured in their baptism by reception of the message again. This is an interesting point for me because many non-Evangelicals [Lutheran] believe the gospel is for only the lost. I believe this contributes to lack of recognition of baptism and communion as gospel messages for the forgiveness of sins among non-Evangelicals [Lutherans] despite the scriptures being ever so clear in stating this purpose and function of the sacraments. Do you also understand the gospel message as a tool simply for the lost or something more?

Baptism refers to a one time event despite the practice of some. Faith can and does at times precede baptism. Could you at least for the purposes of our conversation acknowledge that scripture does NOT refer to baptism as water baptism, but rather baptism [in God's holy name, if you like]. I just spent time explaining why water baptism is merely washing and baptism as scripture identifies is done in God's name ergo God's work not ours. . Thank you in advance.
 

Nic

Well-known member
In the context of this exchange, we are justified and reconciled when the freely given gift of faith is apprehended whether through word or sacrament. If a person already believes then they are surely assured in their baptism by reception of the message again. This is an interesting point for me because many non-Evangelicals [Lutheran] believe the gospel is for only the lost. I believe this contributes to lack of recognition of baptism and communion as gospel messages for the forgiveness of sins among non-Evangelicals [Lutherans] despite the scriptures being ever so clear in stating this purpose and function of the sacraments. Do you also understand the gospel message as a tool simply for the lost or something more?

Baptism refers to a one time event despite the practice of some. Faith can and does at times precede baptism. Could you at least for the purposes of our conversation acknowledge that scripture does NOT refer to baptism as water baptism, but rather baptism [in God's holy name, if you like]. I just spent time explaining why water baptism is merely washing and baptism as scripture identifies is done in God's name ergo God's work not ours. . Thank you in advance.
Non-Evangelicals should be understood as non-Lutherans in both cases in the above. My apologies.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
In the context of this exchange, we are justified and reconciled when the freely given gift of faith is apprehended whether through word or sacrament. If a person already believes then they are surely assured in their baptism by reception of the message again. This is an interesting point for me because many non-Evangelicals [Lutheran] believe the gospel is for only the lost. I believe this contributes to lack of recognition of baptism and communion as gospel messages for the forgiveness of sins among non-Evangelicals [Lutherans] despite the scriptures being ever so clear in stating this purpose and function of the sacraments. Do you also understand the gospel message as a tool simply for the lost or something more?

Baptism refers to a one time event despite the practice of some. Faith can and does at times precede baptism. Could you at least for the purposes of our conversation acknowledge that scripture does NOT refer to baptism as water baptism, but rather baptism [in God's holy name, if you like]. I just spent time explaining why water baptism is merely washing and baptism as scripture identifies is done in God's name ergo God's work not ours. . Thank you in advance.
My biggest problem is when some would take water baptism as entrry point into salvation, as holding to Infant regeration and salvation when sprinkled!
 

Nic

Well-known member
My biggest problem is when some would take water baptism as entrry point into salvation, as holding to Infant regeration and salvation when sprinkled!
I understand that. What's the difference between an infant and say a child or an adult that would come to faith as you see it? Afterall none of which work or bring anything to the table where receiving the freely given gift of faith is concerned. For me the infant is the most certain and clear example of being saved apart from *anything* we *do*.

As far as sprinkling goes, whole couches were baptized yet the furniture wasn't dunked in the river or lake, they were however still washed with water. I'm not certain you were objecting on this point but I wanted to clear this up if this was the case. Washing isn't dependent on how much water is to be used. Luther loved immersion for its imagery of dying and resurrecting. He only objected to immersion when people demanded it had to be that way.

Thanks again for your interaction here.

Nic🙂
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
I understand that. What's the difference between an infant and say a child or an adult that would come to faith as you see it? Afterall none of which work or bring anything to the table where receiving the freely given gift of faith is concerned. For me the infant is the most certain and clear example of being saved apart from *anything* we *do*.

As far as sprinkling goes, whole couches were baptized yet the furniture wasn't dunked in the river or lake, they were however still washed with water. I'm not certain you were objecting on this point but I wanted to clear this up if this was the case. Washing isn't dependent on how much water is to be used. Luther loved immersion for its imagery of dying and resurrecting. He only objected to immersion when people demanded it had to be that way.

Thanks again for your interaction here.

Nic🙂
I see water baptism is external sign of the internal spirit baptisism that already happened when the person got saved!
 

BJ Bear

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YeshuaFan

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BJ Bear

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Throughout the Bible, its always been faith in the Lord that God honored, as Abraham trust and believed in God and His promises, was right with God before circumcision!
Even if it is unintentional the view you have been asserting in this regard is an alien faith. It is an alien faith with regard to the one baptism from God which does now save us through the resurrection of Christ.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 -NKJV

Q: In the passage above what comes first? A: Grace.

Q: What does it do? A: Save.

Q: How does this grace save? A: This grace is received through faith.

Q: Is this faith something a person musters up or is self produced? A: No, it is not of yourselves.

Q: Then from where is this faith? A: It is the gift of God.

Q: If it is a gift of God then is it a work of man? A: It is not a work of man, those are excluded by it being a gift of God.

Q: Then what credit or merit does each human receive or have in his salvation? A: None, lest anyone should boast.

Q: Why is this so? A: Because we are His workmanship.

Q: What does this mean? A:He has created us in Christ Jesus to good works which He prepared in advance for us to do.

What occurs in baptism is the work of God. The one being baptized is a passive object, the one receiving the work of God, who can only rightly receive the gifts bestowed in baptism through faith.
 
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YeshuaFan

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Even if it is unintentional the view you have been asserting in this regard is an alien faith. It is an alien faith with regard to the one baptism from God which does now save us through the resurrection of Christ.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 -NKJV

Q: In the passage above what comes first? A: Grace.

Q: What does it do? A: Save.

Q: How does this grace save? A: This grace is received through faith.

Q: Is this faith something a person musters up or is self produced? A: No, it is not of yourselves.

Q: Then from where is this faith? A: It is the gift of God.

Q: If it is a gift of God then is it a work of man? A: It is not a work of man, those are excluded by it being a gift of God.

Q: Then what credit or merit does each human receive or have in his salvation? A: None, lest anyone should boast.

Q: Why is this so? A: Because we are His workmanship.

Q: What does this mean? A:He has created us in Christ Jesus to good works which He prepared in advance for us to do.

What occurs in baptism is the work of God. The one being baptized is a passive object, the one receiving the work of God, who can only rightly receive the gifts bestowed in baptism through faith.
When one adds water baptism as being required to have us saved, you are nullifying the effectual saving grace of the atonement of Jesus on His Cross!
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
When one adds water baptism as being required to have us saved, you are nullifying the effectual saving grace of the atonement of Jesus on His Cross!
That mischaracterization is utter nonsense in light of what Scripture actually says and means. The Holy Spirit is the best teacher so if you're learning from someone else or if you have a more trusted writing than the commonly accepted Bible of the Christians then please post the name of that person or the title and author of the work you place over Scripture. In that way we can cut out the middle man and get to the root of the foolish and false interpretations.

In the meantime please consider this, if baptism nullified the cross then the claim you make is that you know better than the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit that led Peter to write that baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ. In this way Peter presents the complementary relationship in our salvation between Christ, the cross, and baptism.

Although that passage has been posted and explained numerous times neither you or anyone else has been able to alter or refute that core meaning. The best that anyone has been able to do, and it was counter productive and contrary to Scripture at best, is to present the remaining text in a contrary to the God given perfect immediate context manner in an effort to deny the actual core meaning.

Jesus once asked the following question to unbelievers and they gave the following non answer.

"The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me.”

31 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 32 But if we say, ‘From men’ ”—they feared the people, for all counted John to have been a prophet indeed. 33 So they answered and said to Jesus, “We do not know.”" Mark 11:30-33 -NKJV

Can you give a better answer to that question than those unbelievers?
 
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BJ Bear

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When one adds water baptism as being required to have us saved, you are nullifying the effectual saving grace of the atonement of Jesus on His Cross!
Just a few more thoughts from Scripture, Mark 16:16, Ephesians 2:8-10, and 1 Corinthians 3:5-9.

"He that believed and is baptized shall be saved," was said by the crucified and risen Lord so this is another instance in which the complementary relationship between Christ, His crucifixion and resurrection, and baptism is clearly stated.

""For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 -NKJV

Since faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, then faith comes from outside of us [extra nos], from God. Because faith, the gift of God, comes from outside of us apart from any work or merit on our part there is nothing which separates the most intellectually able adult from a newborn infant, and everyone in between, from receiving that free gift of salvation through faith alone in baptism.

One more thought, an implicit distinction is made in Ephesians 2:8-10 between being a minister, participating in the ministry of reconciliation through the word alone and through the ministry of the the word and sacraments of baptism and communion, and having the power of the of the ministry of the word alone and the ministry of the word and sacraments of baptism and communion.

The Apostle Paul makes the same distinction explicitly in 1 Cor. 3:5-6 that he does in Eph. 2:8-10.

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building." 1 Corinthians 3:5-9 -NKJV
 
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Nic

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yes, as once your Church goers that way, time to live!
Just a thought, but it seems there existed a wrong embrace of reason and / or practice before the "church went that way." Which was obviously ignored or undetected. The "went that way" was merely the fruit of a larger more deeply rooted problem.
 
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Nic

Well-known member
That can and does sometimes happen but to insist upon that in all in all instances is a tacit denial of the grace of God in baptism, the unmerited favorof God in baptism. Baptism along with its gifts and benefits was freely given to men apart from any man's disposition or merit.

Since kidnapping someone or absconding with someone to take to a river is inconsistent with gift giving [emphasis added], as is an unexplained pouring or sprinkling of water on a person, we have a record of the Apostles first witnessing and then baptizing the first converts, the first converts and threir families or households.

An analogous situation to the start of the church among the Gentiles can be found in the Flintstones cartoon. To start the car Fred had to power it by running but once it was running his legs were no longer needed. So it was and is with baptism since parents want what is good and best for their kids, especially when that good and best is freely bestowed upon them.
Except in a case of freely given set of cement galoshes. 🥸
 

Nic

Well-known member
When one adds water baptism as being required to have us saved, you are nullifying the effectual saving grace of the atonement of Jesus on His Cross!
Sarcasm to follow:
Wasn't it this same Jesus who gave us this baptism? You know, the Deity himself, Second Persona of the Trinity, God and all, the Son of Man in the flesh (incarnate), the Son of God, through Him all things were created, that one and the same Jesus? Besides Jesus' office is that of saving, I won't tell him how to do his job.
End of sarcasm.
Serious inquiry follows:
But what is it about the preached gospel that saves? Is there either a component, reaction or both that must take place in order for Jesus to save a person? If so, what are these things? Also please consider how much or how little of the Gospel message is effective (saves to the uttermost) as you understand things?
End of serious inquiry.
Thanks.

Nic🙂
 
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