First sin and its consequence

Oldsaint24

Active member
note: this thread should probably not be in the Cal and Arm forum but it does have valid truth pertaining to the Cal and Arm feud.

Understanding the creation of man and his fall is fundamental in establishing a foundation for ones theology. After all, what is better than starting at the beginning and in the beginning Elohim said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." What is that likeness and image you ask? Elohim is the Triune God. He is One but His singularity of being consists of three separate and distinct entities that are understood as the Father, the Logos (Son, Jesus), the Holy Spirit; the Us and Our in the previously quoted scripture. This image and likeness applied to the creation of man is spirit, body, soul. Man was likewise created as a triune being consisting of a body and soul and a spirit. Again, created Man (singular) consists of three separate and distinct entities, a body a soul and a spirit.

God placed man in the garden and said, "...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." They, Adam and Eve, sinned and ate and died that very day. They did not die physically that very day. They died spiritually that very day. Their spirit died and we immediately see the effects of that death. Adam and Eve were no longer in the image and likeness of God but now in the corrupt image of fallen man. Adam and Eve now corrupted, body and soul only, spiritually dead are unable to produce/procreate children in the image and likeness of God. Instead, Adam and Eve procreate children in the image and likeness of fallen man, NOT in the original image and likeness of the Perfect and Holy Living God. We see this truth in Gen. 5...v.1 "in the day that God CREATED MAN, in the likeness of God made he him." and v.3......"......and begat a son in HIS OWN likeness, after HIS IMAGE".

Why wasn't the son of Adam born in the image and likeness of God, instead born in the likeness of sinful man? Because imperfection cannot produce perfection. All children of men, all mankind is born imperfect, corrupted, spiritually dead/void. In the womb man is shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin. All of us are born fallen , spiritually dead.........with the one exception.........Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.
 

Septextura

Well-known member
@Oldsaint24

Nice. And your comment on the Skull & Bones favorite verse?

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 

TomFL

Well-known member
note: this thread should probably not be in the Cal and Arm forum but it does have valid truth pertaining to the Cal and Arm feud.

Understanding the creation of man and his fall is fundamental in establishing a foundation for ones theology. After all, what is better than starting at the beginning and in the beginning Elohim said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." What is that likeness and image you ask? Elohim is the Triune God. He is One but His singularity of being consists of three separate and distinct entities that are understood as the Father, the Logos (Son, Jesus), the Holy Spirit; the Us and Our in the previously quoted scripture. This image and likeness applied to the creation of man is spirit, body, soul. Man was likewise created as a triune being consisting of a body and soul and a spirit. Again, created Man (singular) consists of three separate and distinct entities, a body a soul and a spirit.

God placed man in the garden and said, "...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." They, Adam and Eve, sinned and ate and died that very day. They did not die physically that very day. They died spiritually that very day. Their spirit died and we immediately see the effects of that death. Adam and Eve were no longer in the image and likeness of God but now in the corrupt image of fallen man. Adam and Eve now corrupted, body and soul only, spiritually dead are unable to produce/procreate children in the image and likeness of God. Instead, Adam and Eve procreate children in the image and likeness of fallen man, NOT in the original image and likeness of the Perfect and Holy Living God. We see this truth in Gen. 5...v.1 "in the day that God CREATED MAN, in the likeness of God made he him." and v.3......"......and begat a son in HIS OWN likeness, after HIS IMAGE".

Why wasn't the son of Adam born in the image and likeness of God, instead born in the likeness of sinful man? Because imperfection cannot produce perfection. All children of men, all mankind is born imperfect, corrupted, spiritually dead/void. In the womb man is shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin. All of us are born fallen , spiritually dead.........with the one exception.........Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.
So you believe the image of God in man was totally destroyed ?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
note: this thread should probably not be in the Cal and Arm forum but it does have valid truth pertaining to the Cal and Arm feud.

Understanding the creation of man and his fall is fundamental in establishing a foundation for ones theology. After all, what is better than starting at the beginning and in the beginning Elohim said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." What is that likeness and image you ask? Elohim is the Triune God. He is One but His singularity of being consists of three separate and distinct entities that are understood as the Father, the Logos (Son, Jesus), the Holy Spirit; the Us and Our in the previously quoted scripture. This image and likeness applied to the creation of man is spirit, body, soul. Man was likewise created as a triune being consisting of a body and soul and a spirit. Again, created Man (singular) consists of three separate and distinct entities, a body a soul and a spirit.

God placed man in the garden and said, "...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." They, Adam and Eve, sinned and ate and died that very day. They did not die physically that very day. They died spiritually that very day. Their spirit died and we immediately see the effects of that death. Adam and Eve were no longer in the image and likeness of God but now in the corrupt image of fallen man. Adam and Eve now corrupted, body and soul only, spiritually dead are unable to produce/procreate children in the image and likeness of God. Instead, Adam and Eve procreate children in the image and likeness of fallen man, NOT in the original image and likeness of the Perfect and Holy Living God. We see this truth in Gen. 5...v.1 "in the day that God CREATED MAN, in the likeness of God made he him." and v.3......"......and begat a son in HIS OWN likeness, after HIS IMAGE".

Why wasn't the son of Adam born in the image and likeness of God, instead born in the likeness of sinful man? Because imperfection cannot produce perfection. All children of men, all mankind is born imperfect, corrupted, spiritually dead/void. In the womb man is shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin. All of us are born fallen , spiritually dead.........with the one exception.........Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.
You have made quite a lot of mistakes in there. When Adam fell, he did not “lose his image of God”. To Noah after the Floor God said:

Genesis 9:

5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


In other words, that image remained unchanged after the Fall. And in Gen. 5:3, when it says that Adam begat Seth “in his own likeness, and after his image”:

Genesis 5:

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


It does not mean that Seth was therefore not in the “image of God”. Since Adam was in the image of God (unchanged), Seth likewise was in the image of God.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
note: this thread should probably not be in the Cal and Arm forum but it does have valid truth pertaining to the Cal and Arm feud.

Understanding the creation of man and his fall is fundamental in establishing a foundation for ones theology. After all, what is better than starting at the beginning and in the beginning Elohim said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." What is that likeness and image you ask? Elohim is the Triune God. He is One but His singularity of being consists of three separate and distinct entities that are understood as the Father, the Logos (Son, Jesus), the Holy Spirit; the Us and Our in the previously quoted scripture. This image and likeness applied to the creation of man is spirit, body, soul. Man was likewise created as a triune being consisting of a body and soul and a spirit. Again, created Man (singular) consists of three separate and distinct entities, a body a soul and a spirit.

God placed man in the garden and said, "...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." They, Adam and Eve, sinned and ate and died that very day. They did not die physically that very day. They died spiritually that very day. Their spirit died and we immediately see the effects of that death. Adam and Eve were no longer in the image and likeness of God but now in the corrupt image of fallen man. Adam and Eve now corrupted, body and soul only, spiritually dead are unable to produce/procreate children in the image and likeness of God. Instead, Adam and Eve procreate children in the image and likeness of fallen man, NOT in the original image and likeness of the Perfect and Holy Living God. We see this truth in Gen. 5...v.1 "in the day that God CREATED MAN, in the likeness of God made he him." and v.3......"......and begat a son in HIS OWN likeness, after HIS IMAGE".

Why wasn't the son of Adam born in the image and likeness of God, instead born in the likeness of sinful man? Because imperfection cannot produce perfection. All children of men, all mankind is born imperfect, corrupted, spiritually dead/void. In the womb man is shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin. All of us are born fallen , spiritually dead.........with the one exception.........Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.
Except

1 Cor. 11:7 —ESV
“For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.”
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
So you believe the image of God in man was totally destroyed ?
Not sure what you are implying with totally destroyed. Adam and Eve died that very day, their spirit died.......and they were no longer perfect and no longer in the image and likeness of Elohim.
 
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Oldsaint24

Active member
You have made quite a lot of mistakes in there. When Adam fell, he did not “lose his image of God”. To Noah after the Floor God said:

Genesis 9:

5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


In other words, that image remained unchanged after the Fall. And in Gen. 5:3, when it says that Adam begat Seth “in his own likeness, and after his image”:

Genesis 5:

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


It does not mean that Seth was therefore not in the “image of God”. Since Adam was in the image of God (unchanged), Seth likewise was in the image of God.
No mistakes. For example, your Gen. 9:6 quote does NOT refute what I wrote. I clearly said that God MADE/CREATED man in His image. Why didn't the text is verse 6 say ".....in the image of God man is born."?

There is no text that says man is BORN in the image and likeness of God. Quite the contrary there are many text that says man must be born again. The Spirit gives birth to the spirit.....correct? If man had a spirit why the need for a spirit to be restored. Why all the text that man is RECREATED/RENEWED/MADE, ect.? Lastly if Seth was in the image and likeness of God as were his parents..he would be perfect....as they were perfect.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Not sure what you are implying with totally destroyed. Adam and Eve died that very day, their spirit died.......and they were no longer perfect and no longer in the image and likeness of Elohim.
The image of God in man was defaced but not eradicated
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
The image of God in man was defaced but not eradicated
And were does it say that in the scriptures? Ask yourself.....why is a spirit (small s) given to God's children of promise? Are children of men born with a spirit? If you say yes, Why is God called the "Father of spirits"? Why, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
And were does it say that in the scriptures? Ask yourself.....why is a spirit (small s) given to God's children of promise? Are children of men born with a spirit? If you say yes, Why is God called the "Father of spirits"? Why, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."?
The new testament verse already quoted


1 Cor. 11:7 —ESV
“For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.”

shows man still retains the image of God
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
The new testament verse already quoted


1 Cor. 11:7 —ESV
“For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.”

shows man still retains the image of God
No, it shows that regenerate children of promise have been renewed into the image of God. Read the whole chapter again and notice "brethren, head of man is Christ, in the Lord, all things of God,..........
The teaching is to and about children of God who have been born of the Spirit, renewed, remade in the image of God. Question......Are children of men born with a spirit? And I am not speaking about a soul, but born with a spirit?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No, it shows that regenerate children of promise have been renewed into the image of God. Read the whole chapter again and notice "brethren, head of man is Christ, in the Lord, all things of God,..........
The teaching is to and about children of God who have been born of the Spirit, renewed, remade in the image of God. Question......Are children of men born with a spirit? And I am not speaking about a soul, but born with a spirit?
I disagree

The verse says nothing at all about the image of God lost and then restored

and the image of God is the basis for capital punishment

Gen. 9:6 —KJV
“Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”
 

zerinus

Well-known member
No mistakes. For example, your Gen. 9:6 quote does NOT refute what I wrote. I clearly said that God MADE/CREATED man in His image. Why didn't the text is verse 6 say ".....in the image of God man is born."?

There is no text that says man is BORN in the image and likeness of God. Quite the contrary there are many text that says man must be born again. The Spirit gives birth to the spirit.....correct? If man had a spirit why the need for a spirit to be restored. Why all the text that man is RECREATED/RENEWED/MADE, ect.? Lastly if Seth was in the image and likeness of God as were his parents..he would be perfect....as they were perfect.
“Born in the image of God” means nothing. Man IS in the image of God. He is not “born” in the image of God. That image is stamped on him forever. It never goes away.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No, it shows that regenerate children of promise have been renewed into the image of God. Read the whole chapter again and notice "brethren, head of man is Christ, in the Lord, all things of God,..........
The teaching is to and about children of God who have been born of the Spirit, renewed, remade in the image of God. Question......Are children of men born with a spirit? And I am not speaking about a soul, but born with a spirit?
Yes they are

1 Cor. 2:11 —KJV
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
Yes they are

1 Cor. 2:11 —KJV
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
It is not good practice to pick a single verse and try to prove a point unless you are sure your verse is adequate. Yours is not. Your verse actually proves my point and the opposite of what you are thinking. Just the very next verse states, "Now we have received , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" And just prior, "But God has revealed them unto us by His Spirit.....". The unregenerate does not have a spirit in which to receive, discern, know, hear, see the things of God. Your quoted verse applies not to children of men but children of God.
Children of men are spiritually dead . The are born corrupt, spiritually void. If this were not the case there would be no reason to be "born from above."
Please explain , "...that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" and "....be in subjection unto the Father of spirits.....". When does the Father become the Father of our spirit? How is a spirit born of the Holy Spirit if one already has a spirit?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
It is not good practice to pick a single verse and try to prove a point unless you are sure your verse is adequate. Yours is not. Your verse actually proves my point and the opposite of what you are thinking. Just the very next verse states, "Now we have received , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" And just prior, "But God has revealed them unto us by His Spirit.....". The unregenerate does not have a spirit in which to receive, discern, know, hear, see the things of God. Your quoted verse applies not to children of men but children of God.
Children of men are spiritually dead . The are born corrupt, spiritually void. If this were not the case there would be no reason to be "born from above."
Please explain , "...that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" and "....be in subjection unto the Father of spirits.....". When does the Father become the Father of our spirit? How is a spirit born of the Holy Spirit if one already has a spirit?
The verse is adequate

It speaks of the spirit of man

1 Cor. 2:11 —KJV
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”

The next verse does not negate the fact that it takes the spirit of man to know what is in man

and no verse 11 is not applied solely to the children of God

Verse 11 speaks of man and him

verse 12 speaks of we who have the spirit of God

Spiritually dead refers to separation from God not a corpse like or non existent state

In any case Instead of rationalization heed scripture

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV 1900)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Heb. 4:12–13 —KJV
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
 
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armylngst

Active member
Not sure what you are implying with totally destroyed. Adam and Eve died that very day, their spirit died.......and they were no longer perfect and no longer in the image and likeness of Elohim.
I think the issue is that you have not considered what is meant when scripture says the image and likeness of God. God is Spirit, we are not, therefore it doesn't mean that we look like God, or that we are like Him in appearance. Some believe that it is our ability to reason, to be rational, our thought/reasoning process, which is the image of God. That was not lost after Adam sinned. So before you can actually state what you have stated, you have to define the image and likeness of God.
 

armylngst

Active member
I did in the beginning, the first post of this thread.
Ah, so that's the misunderstanding. We are still body, mind, and soul. Our spirit may be dead, but it is still there. We still have the breath of God within us, or we wouldn't be physically alive. We are still God's image bearers. If we were not, we would be dead (literally/physically).
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
Ah, so that's the misunderstanding. We are still body, mind, and soul. Our spirit may be dead, but it is still there. We still have the breath of God within us, or we wouldn't be physically alive. We are still God's image bearers. If we were not, we would be dead (literally/physically).

so am I to conclude that you disagree with what God said, "...in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die."? You do not think they died that very day as God said they would?
 
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